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    Card clumping

    The BS and the card counting, are based on the ideal situation, that the cards are evenly distributed in the deck or decks. When there is a card clumping situation existed, that means that the high cards and low cards are not evenly distributed, the BS and card counting would fail and the players would loss even they did everything correctly. It is important to take note of it and take counter measures.

    Recently I encountered a card clumping occassion and took counter measures for it, I put it out for comments.

    I was in a DD game, I had a stiff hand of 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and the dealer had a up card of 2,3,4,7,8,9,10. So I hit it accoding the BS combined with the index when the theory calls for, and I got a high card and bust first. The dealer's hole card half time was a high card and half the time was low card. Should I did not hit, the dealer would bust half the time. After dealer hand shaffling, The history repeated . So I believed there was card clumping. I deviated from BS, stand even the BS called for hitting, sure enough, got the dealer bust for a few hands instead of me busting first if I hit.

    My question is, once the cards clumping happened, with hand shaffling, it would always repeat itself in next round no matter what the dealer does(which is my observation), true or false? VS with ASM, the card clumping would not happen after the ASM shaffling.

  2. #2


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    The most fascinating thing about your post is that you joined this board in 2014.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjarg View Post
    The most fascinating thing about your post is that you joined this board in 2014.
    Unlike you, English is my native language, and I couldn't understand that post.

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    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Prepare for a DD game by combing your hair with a comb drenched with olive oil. If the cards clump, run your right hand through your hair. The cards will become oily and stop clumping. And the shuffler will become a well-oiled machine.

    (This is much less obvious than the original method of concealing a can of 3-in-one oil in a quick-draw sleeve gun.)
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    You bring up an interesting subject. Its been my feeling all along that card clumping can not be beaten. Much like a hi-lo stack, you just can't win. When I see either I just get off the table no matter how busy the casino is! We are trained to look at where the cut card is placed but we are not trained to look at how the dealer picks up the cards after each and every hand. Card clumping can be a natural occurrence or it can be helped along by a dealer that is anti-player. When either clumping or a hi-lo stack occurs, it usually lasts several shoes or longer. So just get off the table.

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    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    One more post like this and the thread will be moved to the disadvantage forum.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    I'd move it for the grammar alone.

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    I think mentioned this in another thread already...

    There IS a strategy for playing a clumped shoe. The strategy was developed for playing stripper decks, though the wisdom of doing so is shaky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ellenc View Post
    The BS and the card counting, are based on the ideal situation, that the cards are evenly distributed in the deck or decks.
    Card counting only works if the cards high and/or low cards are clumped together. Low cards come out in a clump and your advantage goes up. High cards come out in a clump and advantage goes down. You bet big anticipating a clump of high cards may come out on the next round.
    Quote Originally Posted by ellenc View Post
    My question is, once the cards clumping happened, with hand shaffling, it would always repeat itself in next round no matter what the dealer does(which is my observation), true or false?
    False.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ellenc View Post

    My question is, once the cards clumping happened, with hand shaffling, it would always repeat itself in next round no matter what the dealer does(which is my observation), true or false? VS with ASM, the card clumping would not happen after the ASM shaffling.
    Just think about that question for a second...

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    I thought this was an expert forum, in which people rely on math and not just on their intuition.
    Last edited by Anton21; 02-03-2019 at 07:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ellenc View Post
    The BS and the card counting, are based on the ideal situation, that the cards are evenly distributed in the deck or decks.
    This is sort of true for Basic Strategy which is most effective at a TC near zero, but the opposite is true for card counting. As Three said, the premise of card counting is to track the non-homogeneity of the deck. Counting a string of low cards can indicate that a section of the pack with a high density of high cards may be upcoming.* So you want, rather require, different characteristics in different sections of the pack for card counting to work. I don't use the term "clumping" for this condition. This is simply the frequent result of good old hand shuffling.


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