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Thread: New recreational player question

  1. #1


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    New recreational player question

    Hello everyone. Thanks for the responses to my previous thread. I purchased the CVCX software and have been running some simulations and wanted to get some opinions. I plan on playing rated to keep comps at various vegas properties that I have earned over the past decade of being a ploppie. I only visit a couple of times per year and am not trying to make any significant money playing, just want to be a better player in general and prevent major losses. I will be focusing on 6 deck H17/DAS/RSA/LS 4.5pen games at $25 min which seem to be plentiful. Utilizing a slightly modified version of KO with some wong out values and about 16 index plays spreading 1-6 with a score of 17.8 with ROR of 3.5% given my bankroll and expected win rate $16/hour.

    My primary question is a spread of 1-6 or even 1-8 while playing rated at a big shop like Bellagio/MGM/Caesars going to draw any heat? Since my wong out values are somewhat aggressive, I may need to table hop fairly often. I was hoping since I'm not spreading much that I might be able to get 2 or 3 hours in at a single location before moving on.

    Thanks for the help.

  2. #2


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    Tuco.......errrrr i mean billcarson

    You should be okay. If not, then be comforted that you got bounced by a shit hole.

    For the sake of nostalgia
    https://youtu.be/ZSkeQkb8NMo

  3. #3


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    In regards to your statement re: "...just want to be a better player in general and prevent major losses."

    Card counting will make you a better player. BUT...you need to understand that the advantage from card counting comes from a significant bet spread. You must bet way more than your comfort zone in high counts. If you do it right, you will have bigger wins than ever but also bigger losses than ever. You must adopt a long-term mentality and be able to absorb those painful losses.

    Kind of like the golf swing - If it feels strange, there's a good chance you're doing it right.



  4. #4


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    I appreciate your insight Bigdaddy. Perhaps I should take a different approach and go unrated with short sessions and a bigger spread? I have pondered that question regularly as of late. I'm just fearful that I am getting in to the counting game late and with the technology in place at casinos for detecting counters I would jeopardize future (fun) trips with the wife or friends in Vegas for the sake of EV. I'm really torn on how to approach counting on a recreational level starting out at this time in history. There are a few local casinos I can play in the midwest and care less if I get 86'd, but it would be really frustrating to push the limits at a Caesars or MGM properties and hurt my future comps just to capitalize on some supplemental income. Part of me wants to go all in and play unrated and do quick sessions with bigger spreads and climb the ranks of the few who have really made a successful venture into card counting. However, I become fearful that this type of play may not be feasible in the long run, being only in my 30's and making numerous trips to Vegas where I get to bond with family and friends, it would be detrimental to get banned from these properties.

    For those who have taken the time to read all this, what would you do? If you were in my shoes, just starting out, how would you approach the game and what would you have done differently knowing what you know now? Thanks again. I really appreciate all the info.

  5. #5


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    What is your Wong out strategy? If you are wonging out of bad shoes I'd say an 8-1 spread might be a good compromise if you are concerned about keeping the comps rolling.

    Just be aware that playing rated means the casino will be tracking your wins/losses. Once they determine you are a winning BJ player you will find yourself in the "persona non grata" club. Even as an occasional player there's only so much you can accumulate over time. At least in plain sight anyway (rated/comped play)

  6. #6


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    Can you do some sessions with a smaller spread and more cover, rated, then different sessions on different crews, unrated and more aggressive at the same casino? To compromise between getting comps and still getting EV. Not sure if this would work, just suggesting/asking

  7. #7


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    if you are into counting recreationally you can easily play a winning game but with a small win rate . Once you know what count is use for what situation and the use of wong in /out and nzero ,ROR , game selection etc... Example, how would i play a winning game using a small spread ? If i can not spread much what can i do to make up for that ? look at it from every angle , such as the minimum of a table , pen of a game , rules of a game , even the dealer or the pit of your game .

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by billcarson View Post
    Hello everyone. Thanks for the responses to my previous thread. I purchased the CVCX software and have been running some simulations and wanted to get some opinions. I plan on playing rated to keep comps at various vegas properties that I have earned over the past decade of being a ploppie. I only visit a couple of times per year and am not trying to make any significant money playing, just want to be a better player in general and prevent major losses. I will be focusing on 6 deck H17/DAS/RSA/LS 4.5pen games at $25 min which seem to be plentiful. Utilizing a slightly modified version of KO with some wong out values and about 16 index plays spreading 1-6 with a score of 17.8 with ROR of 3.5% given my bankroll and expected win rate $16/hour.

    My primary question is a spread of 1-6 or even 1-8 while playing rated at a big shop like Bellagio/MGM/Caesars going to draw any heat? Since my wong out values are somewhat aggressive, I may need to table hop fairly often. I was hoping since I'm not spreading much that I might be able to get 2 or 3 hours in at a single location before moving on.

    Thanks for the help.

    Hello bill you may or may nor have read my post. I can help you with that but it will take about five hundred less hand with a simple bet spread and a 3 level session bankroll. you do not need to count etc etc if you would like to get in touch perhaps we can arrange a met.

  9. #9


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    +1
    Nice one BIGDADDY

  10. #10


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    Sorry half blind tonight...It would take about five hundred straight hands to in teach yourself teaching seeing patterns and most all basic strategy plays except when at a double advantage.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by stopgambling View Post
    if you are into counting recreationally you can easily play a winning game but with a small win rate . Once you know what count is use for what situation and the use of wong in /out and nzero ,ROR , game selection etc... Example, how would i play a winning game using a small spread ? If i can not spread much what can i do to make up for that ? look at it from every angle , such as the minimum of a table , pen of a game , rules of a game , even the dealer or the pit of your game .

    Counting messes you up you know there are times of usually in most cases a double advantage in the game most players if any but me has discovered. But it is controversial to say the least. Interersted. got a deck...2-4....some chips. And about three minutes explaination in private message You will be asked to ignore most all supposed and learned situations that arises from counting and quite a lot of basic strategy.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    Said the spider to the flea.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by CountinCanadian View Post
    Can you do some sessions with a smaller spread and more cover, rated, then different sessions on different crews, unrated and more aggressive at the same casino? To compromise between getting comps and still getting EV. Not sure if this would work, just suggesting/asking
    No, I do not think that is a good idea at all. If when playing unrated they happen to scan their system and see your name/picture as a recently rated player, does not look natural and draws suspicion.

    Quote Originally Posted by billcarson View Post
    My primary question is a spread of 1-6 or even 1-8 while playing rated at a big shop like Bellagio/MGM/Caesars going to draw any heat? Since my wong out values are somewhat aggressive, I may need to table hop fairly often. I was hoping since I'm not spreading much that I might be able to get 2 or 3 hours in at a single location before moving on.
    Playing two or three hours while aggressive table hopping is way too long a period of time to be doing this in one location. You need to stop thinking about what would be convenient for you and think about what you need to do to survive the scrutiny of the eye upstairs.
    Last edited by BoSox; 09-01-2018 at 01:51 AM.

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