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Thread: MGM Springfield, Ma.

  1. #170


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    Quote Originally Posted by dcdcdc181818 View Post
    I was there Wednesday afternoon again. I did not see any $25 tables. I saw all $10 tables, and saw one $5 table. All were 3-2.

    I did see asm, no csm's. HOWEVER, they would usually place the discarded cards back in the machine when they had dealt only about one deck. That's not really enough to gain an advantage on counting.

    If you can tell me the specific differences, otherwise, I would appreciate it. I have a passing interest in blackjack (as I believe it can be beaten with good rules and card counting), but have only played once in 20+ years (many many years ago I would play a few times a year).
    I'm thinking you don't know what a CSM is.

  2. #171


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    Quote Originally Posted by dcdcdc181818 View Post
    WHAT I am talking about is that, as I understand counting cards, you keep track of the good cards (10, Jack, Queen, King, and Ace) coming out by assigning a negative one value, and keep track of the bad cards (two, three, four, five and Six) coming out by assigning a plus one value. When more bad cards come out than good, the count turns "positive". When you have a positive count of more than one, you increase your bet. But this count is "adjusted" by the number of decks remaining. So, if you have a plus 3 count,with 5 decks remaining, you have only a ".6" - not enough to increase your bet. But if you have a 10 count, with 5 decks remaining, you have a positive 2, worth increasing the bet. But, with the dealer only dealing one deck, you're not going to get many good counts - it would be unusual to have a positive 10 after one deck (it might be more likely to have a positive 10 after 3 decks of a 6 deck game, which would be a positive 3.3, which is a nice deck remaining). Further, having only one deck played, after getting a "positive" count, you lose this count as quickly as you get it, without having a real opportunity to bet more.
    You sem to not understand the difference between a CSM and an ASM. YOU specifically said it was not a CSM you saw but an ASM where the card where put back in after about a deck was played. Also, honestly, I don't think I need the card counting course you gave us...
    G Man

  3. #172


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    Quote Originally Posted by G Man View Post
    You sem to not understand the difference between a CSM and an ASM. YOU specifically said it was not a CSM you saw but an ASM where the card where put back in after about a deck was played. Also, honestly, I don't think I need the card counting course you gave us...
    I'm not trying to get into a fight with you.

    As I've said, I have a passing interest in blackjack, but haven't played for many years. I did play a number of times many years ago, and tried to use card counting.

    Please correct me if I am using the wrong terms, and guide me to the proper terms. I understand that an asm to be an automatic shuffling machine, and when you place a group of cards in, it shuffles them - presumably, the dealer places cards he takes off the table in a discard holder, and puts them in the shuffler which shuffles them. An csm is a continuance shuffling, and it continually shuffles the cards , and the dealer places cards in whenever he/she takes them off the table.

    I'm more than happy to learn the right terminology and understand additional subtleties.

    Thank you - sincerely.

  4. #173


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    The term ASM is somewhat misleading or even stupid, because every shuffling machine is automatic (otherwise it would be no machine). The crucial thing is, there are three modes of shuffling the cards at blackjack:

    1.) Manual shuffling by the dealer's hands

    2.) Automatic machine shuffling (ASM) of all decks (e.g. 6 decks of a shoe) after all cards have been played from the shoe (which serves as the card dispenser) and piled in the discard tray (plus the non-played cards behind the cut card in the shoe). This only happens after several (sometimes 15) rounds. The dealing shoe and the ASM shuffling machine are two different devices at different places.

    3.) Continuous machine shuffling (CSM) of any small portion of the cards immediately after they have been played, e.g. after every round, by reinserting them directly into the pack of remaining cards, which are located in a big snail housing called CSM, which replaces the shoe and is also used as the card dispenser.

    See
    https://www.baltimoresun.com/busines...711-story.html
    (Btw. with comments from Stanford Wong and Colin Jones).

    In 1.) and 2.), card counting is possible, since bygone cards will not reappear during the rest of the shoe (about 5, 10 or 15 rounds). In 3.), card counting is useless because any information you collect during one round is shortly thereafter destroyed by reinserting the bygone cards into the CSM, so they can reappear during the very next round or at least during the round after (there seems to be a short latency/buffer of about 15-20 cards).
    Last edited by PinkChip; 01-12-2020 at 06:56 PM.

  5. #174


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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkChip View Post
    The term ASM is somewhat misleading or even stupid, because every shuffling machine is automatic (otherwise it would be no machine). The crucial thing is, there are three modes of shuffling the cards at blackjack:

    1.) Manual shuffling by the dealer's hands

    2.) Automatic machine shuffling (ASM) of all decks (e.g. 6 decks of a shoe) after all cards have been played from the shoe (which serves as the card dispenser) and piled in the discard tray (plus the non-played cards behind the cut card in the shoe). This only happens after several (sometimes 15) rounds. The dealing shoe and the ASM shuffling machine are two different devices at different places.

    3.) Continuous machine shuffling (CSM) of any small portion of the cards immediately after they have been played, e.g. after every round, by reinserting them directly into the pack of remaining cards, which are located in a big snail housing called CSM, which replaces the shoe and is also used as the card dispenser.

    See
    https://www.baltimoresun.com/busines...711-story.html
    (Btw. with comments from Stanford Wong and Colin Jones).

    In 1.) and 2.), card counting is possible, since bygone cards will not reappear during the rest of the shoe (about 5, 10 or 15 rounds). In 3.), card counting is useless because any information you collect during one round is shortly thereafter destroyed by reinserting the bygone cards into the CSM, so they can reappear during the very next round or at least during the round after (there seems to be a short latency/buffer of about 15-20 cards).

    Thank you very much.

    That is essentially what I believe I was saying (or at least what I thought I was saying).

    The games I saw probably fall into category number 3, although I believe about one deck had been played before they put the cards back into the shuffling machine. I will pay more attention the next time I stroll through. And, I add, I did not see any $25 dollar tables where there might not be such a harsh system.

    I am not interested in playing with bad rules. (6-5, soft 17, no surrendering, limits on splitting and doubling down - I could, perhaps, survive a little with a soft 17 and no surrendering, if the minimums are low enough, and I am confident on counting cards).

    Thank you for stepping in an giving some calmness to this recent discussion. I will try to be more specific with my words in the future.

  6. #175


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    Has anyone played here recently, this forum has me nervous the rules/limits aren't as positive as they seem on the latest CBJN (.26%). On the eastern seaboard for a short period.

  7. #176


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    Quote Originally Posted by cliffhucker69 View Post
    Has anyone played here recently, this forum has me nervous the rules/limits aren't as positive as they seem on the latest CBJN (.26%). On the eastern seaboard for a short period.
    ASM starts at $25, S17. There is a “high limit” pit. Aka counter trap pit. That starts at 25 with NMSE.

    Low limit is CSM, now revert back to 3:2 for BJ, as opposed to, 6:5 a few months ago.

  8. #177


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hsiaodi View Post
    ASM starts at $25, S17. There is a “high limit” pit. Aka counter trap pit. That starts at 25 with NMSE.

    Low limit is CSM, now revert back to 3:2 for BJ, as opposed to, 6:5 a few months ago.
    Thank you! Looks like PA it is.

  9. #178


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    $5 tables

    There is a billboard on the highway near the Springfield MGM that states "$5 blackjack, 24/7".

    I suspect that it has soft 17's being hit. But it is interesting that they have at least one table at all times at $5.

  10. #179


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    Quote Originally Posted by dcdcdc181818 View Post
    There is a billboard on the highway near the Springfield MGM that states "$5 blackjack, 24/7".

    I suspect that it has soft 17's being hit. But it is interesting that they have at least one table at all times at $5.
    Unless something has changed these are CSM dealt games and the $5 minimums are available on weekdays from 6AM to 9AM only. The $5 minimums apply to most, if not all, table games during those hours.

  11. #180


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    The Billboard says 24/7 Blackjack. And I've seen them dealing $5 blackjack in the mid afternoon.

    And, as I've posted previously, they take the discarded cards, put them into a discarded pile, and after a few rounds (maybe about a deck) put the cards into the asm or csm.

  12. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcdcdc181818 View Post
    ...put the cards into the asm or csm.
    Someone is probably going to zing you for this...again...
    Last edited by Wave; 02-01-2020 at 09:55 AM.

  13. #182


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    Quote Originally Posted by dcdcdc181818 View Post
    The Billboard says 24/7 Blackjack. And I've seen them dealing $5 blackjack in the mid afternoon.

    And, as I've posted previously, they take the discarded cards, put them into a discarded pile, and after a few rounds (maybe about a deck) put the cards into the asm or csm.
    There are two different blackjack shufflers in this casino as mentioned. They are both Shuffle Master (Scientific Games) products.

    The MDX sits on the table and is the one referred to as a CSM. You have accurately described it but shouldn't have lumped the ASM in with it.

    The MD3 is known as an ASM and sits level and off to the dealer's left of the table. It has two "towers" that each accomodate 6 or 8 decks. All this machine does is shuffle the cards which are dealt from a shoe in regular fashion. When the cut card comes out the dealer inserts the 6 or 8 decks into the machine, takes the other 6 or 8 decks out, places them in the shoe and begins dealing.

    While those cards are being dealt, the others are in the machine being shuffled. It's all about hands per hour.

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