What would you recommend to someone going for KO system ?

[Letangs]

Hello guys.

I am currently in a serious learning and brain-automatizing of the best version of the Basic Strategy regarding the rules of the Casinos in the nearest area of where I live (we all have to begin sometime eh...)

In the meantime, I'm overlooking to grow my Blackjack knowledge and I start to look at adopting a system that fits me in order to perform "for real".

I got the feeling that the vast majority of Blackjack books (and I do have at least a dozen of them) are mainly based on the famous "Hi/Lo" system, that most of you here seem to recommend aswell for his advantages that I am aware of.

Honestly, I absolutely don't feel any comfortable in adopting a system that requires a permanent conversion between the RC/TC. Playing the BS perfectly, including deviations based on the count, and keeping the count perfectly in my head in a Casino environment seems hard enough. I don't feel myself capable of actually divide the RC into what I estimate being the remaining packs in order to get my TC, based on which I have to make decisions. I'm not "Mathematics friendly" enough for this.

Long story short, after a few researches, I figured out that my best chance would be the KO system, that requires no RC/TC conversion and performs very closely to Hi/Lo.

I have already read "Knock-Out Blackjack" and I'm about to read it a second time, as it seems the starting-point to anyone wanting to understand this system.

1) I apparently have seen (or understood) that Norm's free e-book (Modern Blackjack) is also treating a lot of the KO system, and I'm about to read it aswell very soon, is that true ?

2) And third, I have seen posts from people saying that the book "The Color of Blackjack" is one of the best additional information you can get for KO system and it's a must-read. Can you confirm that aswell ? Because I havn't got that book and I would need to buy it.

3) I'm also open to any suggestion you might have regarding the KO systems. I know there are true BJ experts here and that's priceless to have such plateforms to gather information from the right persons.

Thanks a lot and I'll be looking forward to reading you

[stopgambling]

just know what it is designed for and use it in that regard.

[Three]

I don't feel myself capable of actually divide the RC into what I estimate being the remaining packs in order to get my TC, based on which I have to make decisions

Many people find division much harder than multiplication. You can use multiplication instead of division. For index plays you multiply the true count index by the number of unseen decks to get a RC decision barrier. For betting you go back to your multiplication tables in elementary school. Lets say there are 4 decks unseen. If the RC is positive you see 0,4,8,12,16,20,24,28,32,36,40,44... in your head. The RC is exactly one of these numbers or fits between them. Use your rounding technique for the sims you use to figure out which multiple is the right one. I doubt you have to do division to know what the factor is that would multiply by the decks unseen to get that number. If the he RC is 14 you know that 12 is 4*3, so the TC is 3. The same can be used for negative RCs but the rounding might be to a different magnitude multiple than it would be for the same magnitude but positive RC.

You will only use certain numbers as the number of decks unseen. You might use 1 deck intervals early in the shoe because there is almost no gain to being any finer with your deck estimate accuracy. Once you get below 3 decks left you might go to 1/2 deck accuracy for deck estimations. And if you get below 1 deck unseen you should go to 1/4 dec accuracy for your full deck estimation of the unseen cards. If you use that the possible deck estimates are 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2.5, 2, 1.5, 1, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4. The whole numbers are probably already easily done. The fractions may take laying out the theories. For fractional increments of 1/2 deck I just use the series of double that, like 2.5 would use 5, where each multiple of 5 is an even multiple of 2.5 and the odd multiples are halfway between those.

It gets pretty easy and automatic in no time and if you know your multiples you don't even use math at all. If you don't know them studying the possible series that are used for the deck estimates you will use for the game you play will make them automatic.

Long story short, after a few researches, I figured out that my best chance would be the KO system, that requires no RC/TC conversion and performs very closely to Hi/Lo.

This can be a good first step until you get more comfortable doing what you need to do with whatever unbalanced count you choose to use. Once that is easy you can decide if you want to stick with it or develop some more skills required to use a balanced count.

1) I apparently have seen (or understood) that Norm's free e-book (Modern Blackjack) is also treating a lot of the KO system, and I'm about to read it aswell very soon, is that true ?

I think he focuses on REKO (Really Easy K) and it is a great source for both of those counts.

I will leave the rest to people that are more familiar with the simpler counts. Every count has its strengths and weaknesses. Playing to a counts strengths and away from its weaknesses should be done no matter what count you use.

[CountinCanadian]

For index plays you multiply the true count index by the number of unseen decks to get a RC decision barrier.

Hell that seems so obvious, but that's so much easier when you're rushed on a playing decision... Thank you for this, Three

[Letangs]

Hello guys.

I might use this thread to ask a few questions regarding KO system.
here is something I struggle to understand.

in the KO BJ by Vancura & Fuchs p75.

The table gives the relation between deck / IRC / key count.

and they also talk about the « Pivot point ».

1st question
The mathematic logic behind the calculation of the IRC is :
IRC = 4 - (4 x nb of decks).
Could anyone enlighten me on that ? If I understand, it is to make sure that after all packs of any BJ game have been revealed (1/2/4/6/8d) that the RC remains +4
then why the mathematic formula isn’t IRC = 0 - (4 x nb of decks) so it can end up in a RC of 0 no matter how many decks the game is playing with ?
could anyone give me an explanation so I can understand what lays behind that logic ?


2nd question
I don’t get the difference that between the « Key count » and the « Pivot point ».
Pivot point is (for ex in a single deck) +4 if the IRC is 0. From what I understand, it means that between 0 and +4 we have no accurate information wether we’re at advantage or not because of the imbalanced system.
therefore, why the chart says the « key count » is +2 ? Where does that information come from ? Can anyone explain this ? I kept re-reading pages, I can’t seem to get it.

— Letangs

[Dbs6582]

Hello guys.

I might use this thread to ask a few questions regarding KO system.
here is something I struggle to understand.

in the KO BJ by Vancura & Fuchs p75.

The table gives the relation between deck / IRC / key count.

and they also talk about the « Pivot point ».

1st question
The mathematic logic behind the calculation of the IRC is :
IRC = 4 - (4 x nb of decks).
Could anyone enlighten me on that ? If I understand, it is to make sure that after all packs of any BJ game have been revealed (1/2/4/6/8d) that the RC remains +4
then why the mathematic formula isn’t IRC = 0 - (4 x nb of decks) so it can end up in a RC of 0 no matter how many decks the game is playing with ?
could anyone give me an explanation so I can understand what lays behind that logic ?


2nd question
I don’t get the difference that between the « Key count » and the « Pivot point ».
Pivot point is (for ex in a single deck) +4 if the IRC is 0. From what I understand, it means that between 0 and +4 we have no accurate information wether we’re at advantage or not because of the imbalanced system.
therefore, why the chart says the « key count » is +2 ? Where does that information come from ? Can anyone explain this ? I kept re-reading pages, I can’t seem to get it.

— Letangs

You know all this and yet you didn’t know the difference in basic stategy between hard and soft hands. I’m sorry but I find that hard to believe.

[Letangs]

You know all this and yet you didn’t know the difference in basic stategy between hard and soft hands. I’m sorry but I find that hard to believe.

What is that again ? An accusation of "trolling" ? ....
I knew the difference between hard and soft hands, I just had a problem with multi-cards hands. Perhaps unlike you, I have to make up "logical connectors" in my brain so that I don't have to think it twice. I'm just like that... and I believe I'm not alone.

And I don't know "all this", that's pretty much why I have questions ! I'm currently re-reading KO BJ that's why.

[Letangs]

Despite turning the subject in every possible way, I still can’t figure out that « key count » as described in the table of KO BJ p75.

To determine the IRC I get the formula 4 - (nb of decks x4).
that also sets the « Pivot point » constantly at 4.

Yet I can’t figure out the Key Counts mentioned in the table.

for SD I get the IRC 0 ///// Pivot Point 4 ///// but I don’t get the Key Count being 2... It doesn’t make any sense to me.
same for DD ... IRC -4 ///// Pivot Point 4 //// but why Key Count 1 ..
for 4 decks IRC - 12 //// Pivot Point 4 ///// key count -1.

based on that I first thought you make a Minus 1 on Key Count based on adding a deck, but it makes no sense as for a 6D it should be -3 and the book says its -4...

Anyone knows the logical that lays behind the finding of the « key count » ?

[Mets]

Hi Letangs,

This is probably not going to answer your question. But as a KO player, I just wanted to chime in and say there are KO players out there.

I have been using KO for two years (160 hours) in 8 deck shoes. Not too sure either about the key count, but I do believe the authors were trying to make the pivot point at the same number regardless of the number of decks in play. Also, the insurance decision is always at a count of 3 with this formula. The later chapters that introduce KO Preferred and incremental betting talk more about Key Counts and the Pivot Point.

In eight decks:
IRC: -28
Key: -6
Pivot: 4

My first ten months saw $3,000.00 positive variance.
My last 14 months, $3,000.00 neg variance.

I'm now at the break even point, but lots of comp hotel rooms and meals and lots of fun. Good luck.

[Three]

My first ten months saw $3,000.00 positive variance.
My last 14 months, $3,000.00 neg variance.

I'm now at the break even point, but lots of comp hotel rooms and meals and lots of fun. Good luck.

That should put you at EV not at break even.

[Gramazeka]

Letangs, help for you-

https://www.blackjackinfo.com/commun...uestions.9666/

[Letangs]

Hi Letangs,

This is probably not going to answer your question. But as a KO player, I just wanted to chime in and say there are KO players out there.

I have been using KO for two years (160 hours) in 8 deck shoes. Not too sure either about the key count, but I do believe the authors were trying to make the pivot point at the same number regardless of the number of decks in play. Also, the insurance decision is always at a count of 3 with this formula. The later chapters that introduce KO Preferred and incremental betting talk more about Key Counts and the Pivot Point.

In eight decks:
IRC: -28
Key: -6
Pivot: 4

My first ten months saw $3,000.00 positive variance.
My last 14 months, $3,000.00 neg variance.

I'm now at the break even point, but lots of comp hotel rooms and meals and lots of fun. Good luck.

Hello my friend,

Good to know, so we can share some knowledge about KO systems !

Yes I know the values of IRC / KC / PP. But so far that I totally understand PP and IRC, I fail to understand what are the mathematics behind the KC. Is it the result of millions of simulations that leads to the KC mentioned in the KO book, or is it something we can figure out ourselves.
I don't like too much just "trusting" a number given when I don't understand the logic that lays behind it, except if it's millions of sims so then I will just say "Amen" to it.

May I ask what KO system you use and your betting spread ?

See you soon

-- Letangs

[stopgambling]

KO's strike point differs with Rules of BJ and pen .