Count reluctant to go positive

[Dbs6582]

DBS, you perhaps do not understand but it is important for businesses to develop long term regular customers. This means allowing some to win some times. For example, a newbie counter prepares, practices and finally gets in a casino with perhaps a $1000 BR. He wins $300. Later, he goes home or to a party or tells all his buddies that he won at the local casino. That attracts a dozen of his friends to that casino. That casino has benefited from allowing a card counter to win. It has generated business.

Most businesses offer deals, like 2 for 1 dinner entrees. Some will come eat and leave and tghat restaurant takes a loss but a lot more come, order dessert, drinks and more the restaurant makes money.

I get it Zee. What you are describing are positive EV customers. Read my post again. I never said casinos should kick out positive EV customers.

I’ll repeat what I’ve said many times. I just don’t see all these marginal recreational counters being kicked out. I spot counters all the time and I don’t see casinos kicking them out. The casinos understand these are positive EV customers. Nobody is disagreeing with this. I don’t think this is a huge problem anyway. I’m surprised it gets so much press time on bj forums.

For sake of argument, let’s say casinos are making a huge mistake and backing off positive EV customers (basically marginal counters). Why should I care? What can I do about? Why get on a forum and complain like Three and his cohorts, like Freightman? What good does this do?

I try to only control what is in my control. If I know I’m playing at a casino that will backoff marginal red chippers, what do I do? Do I get on a forum and complain about how stupid the casinos are? No! I try to play within their tolerance or I don’t play there.

I guess I don’t get why the AP community is spending so much time and energy talking about what casinos should and should not do. If it makes APs feel better to throw a “pitty party” about the deteriorating conditions then go for it.

As for me, I’m going to deal with the deck I’ve been delt. If it means I have to play some 6:5 every once in a while, I do it, especially if it’s a really good 6:5 game (like the ones Freightman and Theee refer to).

If the games get so bad, they can’t be beat, I’ll quite going to casinos. You won’t see me on these forums complaining about how stupid casinos are for not having games APs can beat. My guess is that’s what you'll See Freighman and Three doing. Just sitting around complaining on bj forums.

[Freightman]

Thanks Freightman. A word of advice, check out if you are getting obsessed with another poster here. I have an obsessed pro myself who cannot get me off his mind. He used to post right after I did, usually attempting to ridicule me. He even spent time composing some sort of nomination for the BJ Hall of shame or something. These days he seems to have less time but still brings me up, even when I am not on a thread.

You are well respected and admired by many, including me. Dont let that reputation get turned around. No offense.

Appreciate the comments, I know they’re well intentioned. If you recall, he was non - stop with post after post going after me. Just some payback for the little shit - maybe it will give him cause to pause when he considers someone else for his next campaign.

[ZeeBabar]

I get it Zee. What you are describing are positive EV customers. Read my post again. I never said casinos should kick out positive EV customers.

I’ll repeat what I’ve said many times. I just don’t see all these marginal recreational counters being kicked out. I spot counters all the time and I don’t see casinos kicking them out. The casinos understand these are positive EV customers. Nobody is disagreeing with this. I don’t think this is a huge problem anyway. I’m surprised it gets so much press time on bj forums.

For sake of argument, let’s say casinos are making a huge mistake and backing off positive EV customers (basically marginal counters). Why should I care? What can I do about? Why get on a forum and complain like Three and his cohorts, like Freightman? What good does this do?

I try to only control what is in my control. If I know I’m playing at a casino that will backoff marginal red chippers, what do I do? Do I get on a forum and complain about how stupid the casinos are? No! I try to play within their tolerance or I don’t play there.

I guess I don’t get why the AP community is spending so much time and energy talking about what casinos should and should not do. If it makes APs feel better to throw a “pitty party” about the deteriorating conditions then go for it.

As for me, I’m going to deal with the deck I’ve been delt. If it means I have to play some 6:5 every once in a while, I do it, especially if it’s a really good 6:5 game (like the ones Freightman and Theee refer to).

If the games get so bad, they can’t be beat, I’ll quite going to casinos. You won’t see me on these forums complaining about how stupid casinos are for not having games APs can beat. My guess is that’s what you'll See Freighman and Three doing. Just sitting around complaining on bj forums.

DBS, to be fair, there is nothing wrong with venting. Freightman does play a lot of BJ. T3 knows his stuff. Its the other full time pros that sometimes can be vicious. Norm does not tolerate it. BJ21, before it sort of committed suicide had a lot of great but quite intolerant pros and their moderator would not step in often.

[Dbs6582]

DBS, to be fair, there is nothing wrong with venting. Freightman does play a lot of BJ. T3 knows his stuff. Its the other full time pros that sometimes can be vicious. Norm does not tolerate it. BJ21, before it sort of committed suicide had a lot of great but quite intolerant pros and their moderator would not step in often.

You're right Zee. I really don’t mind Freighman and Three’s constant insults and name calling. In fact, I kind of miss them when they ignore me. I don’t know what I did to get back in their good graces because they have been paying a lot more attention to me lately. It’s good to see we’re back together again as one big happy family. Lol.

[Three]

Deep pen mattered when they did not have ASM's. On handshuffled games, it takes a lot of time but with ASM's, hardly any. A casino could well decide that cutting off 2 decks costs almost negligible time and EV while driving away most card counters.

Every casino I frequent, the procedures before putting the cards into the shuffle machine takes more time than the shuffling. Now if they shuffled they would still do the same procedures but the ASM doesn't save much time because the plugging, deck turning etc takes so long. First they plug the bottoms again and again. Then the plug the tops again and again. Then they plug the remaining cards again and again and a again. then they cut the thing in half and in half again and turn the cards. Then they cut the other half in half and turn the cards then they restock one half from one side with the other half from the other side and again with the other 2 piles. Then they restock the cards and push the button. A while latter the machine opens and they put the cards in. Then the shuffled cards pop up.

Plus much of the time machines get a red light. The casino must choose to gamble on whether or not to stop the game or risk giving everyone a freeroll because one of the cards from one color deck is in with the other color which would require they rebate all losses on the play with the illegal pack of cards. Some choose to halt play entirely until all the cards are checked while others keep the game going and risk a further freeroll than they already have. With one pack of cards and a hand shuffle none of the red light procedures and risks would happen. That saves enough time in the course of the day to hand shuffle instead and save the huge rental and maintenance fees on the shuffle machines. Think how many machines they are renting at a ridiculous rate. It doesn't matter if the machines are being used, just that the machines are in the casino. In all there is almost no time saved and instead of getting shuffles by people you are already paying, that you pay peanuts anyway, they pay more for each shuffle machine at every table in the casino whether being used or not than they pay any dealer dealing the game. That is a huge loss to the casino. Almost every small casino doesn't use shuffle machines because the machines cost the casino more than the games generate since most players play low stakes and almost no high rollers play at all. These casinos aren't even comfortable taking high roller action. The small players keep the lights on but the high rollers get the suits their big bonuses. Funny how most high limit areas have very few shuffle machines. It is like the casino is doing everything backwards if they think the machines get them more rounds. They should want more rounds from the high rollers. Think about it. They don't want to risk the red light freeroll for the high rollers. Plus nobody trusts the machines like they trust the hand shuffles. They don't care what the peons think but do care how the high rollers feel. I think there is a lot of payola and graft to avoid taxes as they take money from one pocket and put it in their other pocket.

It is like comping rooms. Who is going to pay thousands of dollars for a suite. There are some but not enough to keep them full. The rest of the rooms are kept full with comped occupants save a few for last minute high rollers being accommodated. That is money the casino pays to the hotel and doesn't pay taxes on. Taxes on the gambling hold is high. Taxes on their lodgings are lower (that is my guess anyway without actually checking).

[ZeeBabar]

T3, where I pay the procedures seem different. At the end of the shoe, there is a deck or maybe a deck and a half left. They just quickly stick it in 2-3 places on the discard where the rest of the decks are, pick em up, put them in ASM and bring out the next deck. In DD its faster. Moreover, since side bets came along and grew popular, they are now making even more money while slowing the game down a bit. I see more of a consistency these days in that 6 decks are cut off anywhere between .75 and 1.5 decks unless someone is making a lot of money or they suspect a CC and then the next dealer they send in cuts of 2 decks. I just dont think there is as much of a loss or concern about revenues lost due to cutting off an extra half deck more or less.

You are right about the corruption. I wonder when a major chain was in trouble for cheating? I dont think they have much to fear from the oversight people. Its just job creation by the state to have an oversight organization while pleasing the public.

[BoSox]

Every casino I frequent, the procedures before putting the cards into the shuffle machine takes more time than the shuffling. Now if they shuffled they would still do the same procedures but the ASM doesn't save much time because the plugging, deck turning etc takes so long. First they plug the bottoms again and again. Then the plug the tops again and again. Then they plug the remaining cards again and again and a again. then they cut the thing in half and in half again and turn the cards. Then they cut the other half in half and turn the cards then they restock one half from one side with the other half from the other side and again with the other 2 piles. Then they restock the cards and push the button. A while latter the machine opens and they put the cards in. Then the shuffled cards pop up.

Three, this is all true and where I play the delay takes even longer as the procedure is for the dealer to call out shuffle when needed and the dealer must allow a pit person to press the button and switch the cards from the machine. Now this is in the high limit area and there is one other big step before the dealer asks for a cut, he/she will proceed into a one-step shorter version of a shuffle "that just came out of the machine" with a riffling of all six decks, which takes even more time. I would like to point out that except for that one casino exception all the ASMS that I have seen were always located on the small tables.

Think how many machines they are renting at a ridiculous rate. It doesn't matter if the machines are being used, just that the machines are in the casino. In all there is almost no time saved and instead of getting shuffles by people you are already paying, that you pay peanuts anyway, they pay more for each shuffle machine at every table in the casino whether being used or not than they pay any dealer dealing the game. That is a huge loss to the casino.

Three, I understand your intelligent point perfectly as it has been my own personal pet peeve for a long time now, as the expense does not justify the means.

Dbs wrote in post #46:

"Obviously, casinos (any business for that matter) are going to spend more time and resources going after the big negative EV customers than the smaller negative EV custimers. But they will still pick off a low level negative EV customer when they know that person is extracting money from the casino."

I do not believe what you are saying. If the casinos were only concerned about the big player hurting them why the fuck are a huge percentage of the ASM'S located on the low-end tables? I will give you one opinion. You simply cannot have infrequent periodic hits of $200 and $300 dollars taking place in your business. You cannot have a few slimy low lives walking out happy once in a while. Any expense that could possibly help stop this nonsense, "as stupid as it sounds" WHO THE FUCK CARES IT IS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE AT STAKE.

[Dbs6582]

Three, this is all true and where I play the delay takes even longer as the procedure is for the dealer to call out shuffle when needed and the dealer must allow a pit person to press the button and switch the cards from the machine. Now this is in the high limit area and there is one other big step before the dealer asks for a cut, he/she will proceed into a one-step shorter version of a shuffle "that just came out of the machine" with a riffling of all six decks, which takes even more time. I would like to point out that except for that one casino exception all the ASMS that I have seen were always located on the small tables.



Three, I understand your intelligent point perfectly as it has been my own personal pet peeve for a long time now, as the expense does not justify the means.

Dbs wrote in post #46:

"Obviously, casinos (any business for that matter) are going to spend more time and resources going after the big negative EV customers than the smaller negative EV custimers. But they will still pick off a low level negative EV customer when they know that person is extracting money from the casino."

I do not believe what you are saying. If the casinos were only concerned about the big player hurting them why the fuck are a huge percentage of the ASM'S located on the low-end tables? I will give you one opinion. You simply cannot have infrequent periodic hits of $200 and $300 dollars taking place in your business. You cannot have a few slimy low lives walking out happy once in a while. The expense to stop this nonsense, "as stupid as it is" WHO THE FUCK CARES IT IS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE AT STAKE.

Hey Bosox, we’re in agreement here on the ASM. And I think some of the casinos in my area are also seeing the light. I’ve seen some take out their ASM. I expect it’s due to the cost and they didn’t do much to speed up the game. Casinos are like any other business. They make mistakes and sometimes invest in things that didn’t work out. Another example is MindPlay. That was a disaster, but still a lot of casinos used it before it was pulled.

As far as the casinos only caring about the big player, I didn’t say that. Reread my post. They care about anybody that is winning. They aren’t in the business of giving out money, even to small time APs. I get that. That was my point. They see anybody that is a consistent winner as a “threat”.

I understand your point about casinos not liking people walking out with money, even just a couple hundred. That’s why I’ve become an expert ratholer. I only rathole green chips but I’m good at it. Being a former amateur magician, I’m pretty good at getting them off the table without anybody noticing. I’ve even done it while talking to a pit boss and they didn’t have a clue what I was doing. Here’s a tip for people on ratholing. I only rathole to my back pocket. And I mostly do it when I go for my phone, which is in my back pocket.

I know some pros advise against ratholing but they are wrong, wrong and wrong again. If you’re going to play at your local casino rated, which I do, then you need to learn to rathole so their records on you show you’re a loser. As we all know, casinos don’t like winners. It’s our job to show them we’re losers. This is part of getting away with it.

Btw, I think we’re more aligned on this then you think. The casino is our foe; we shouldn’t be fighting amongest ourselves. My point with my defense of the casinos is just to point out how they think. Part of being a good AP is knowing your openent so you can exploit their weakness. I have no ill-will torwards casinos. They are just doing their job...and I’m doing mine. It’s a fun battle.

[Sharky]

What do you mean Sharky? His comments support my contention....

are you really that FUCKING stupid, or just a troll? Seriously, dude, he is MY EXAMPLE...the guy who plays on lunch, before meeting friends for dinner, before going to a show, ETC...he left with money and was there for a limited amount of time, so the more hands the casino deals, the more (theoretical) profits...you are such a fucking mental midget that you focus on him leaving after a 1/2 shoe...ok, obviously it didn't matter then YOU STUPID FUCKING IDIOT!!!!

so you manage Phd's???....ok, so you're an 8th grade principal in Huntsville, AL...have a nice life, dipshit

[Sharky]

Yes Bosox, I saw this post by Sharky and was very tempted to respond but decided against it because I could tell by the way it’s worded Sharky doesn’t understand business so I knew he wouldn’t understand my reply. It’s wrong....

you are SO FUCKING PATHETIC

please consider:

• i possess advanced degrees (eng & mba) at prestigious universities (both top 50 programs nationwide)
• companies pay consulting fees in excess of $10k/wk + exp FOR ME to tell them how they can be more efficient (profitable)
• my big toe has more business sense and has made me more $$$ then your entire pea brain
• you are the numskull who believes that casinos cannot create demand by placing the cut card further back (your RETARDED 'fixed demand' concept

bye bye, dipshit

[Dbs6582]

are you really that FUCKING stupid, or just a troll? Seriously, dude, he is MY EXAMPLE...the guy who plays on lunch, before meeting friends for dinner, before going to a show, ETC...he left with money and was there for a limited amount of time, so the more hands the casino deals, the more (theoretical) profits...you are such a fucking mental midget that you focus on him leaving after a 1/2 shoe...ok, obviously it didn't matter then YOU STUPID FUCKING IDIOT!!!!

so you manage Phd's???....ok, so you're an 8th grade principal in Huntsville, AL...have a nice life, dipshit

Calm down Sharky. Go back and read his post. He left before he even got to the cut card. This meant it didn’t matter where the cut card was placed. But yes, I do get your point.

Again, I do fully get your - and all the other APs - point on the cut card. Yes, of course it has to matter how fast the dealer deals and where the cut card is. Take the extreme example, a dealer deals one hand per hour, or the cut card is placed so the dealer only deals one hand and then has to shuffle. I think we can all see this is going to impact revenues and profits. Obviously, they have to deal hands or they don’t make any money.

I guess my point is the AP community makes too big of a deal on this cut card thing. There is more to a casino making money then just moving the cut card further back. Casinos can’t magically generate demand just by placing the cut card further back. Demand comes into the equation. I think most reasonable people would agree with this.

[Sharky]

... Also I saw Freightman ask an excellent question (something like what level constitutes a threat?). And Sharky couldn’t answer it. Why?.....

you STUPID FUCKING TURD....please find and read ryemo's MOST EXCELLENT post regarding you "don't know when your a threat, til ya find out"...

RYEMO - POST OF THE YEAR, BRO!!!!

dipshit...read it 10 times over - I KNOW YOU WON'T GRASP IT - and then keep reading it, pea head

[Dbs6582]

you STUPID FUCKING TURD....please find and read ryemo's MOST EXCELLENT post regarding you "don't know when your a threat, til ya find out"...

RYEMO - POST OF THE YEAR, BRO!!!!

dipshit...read it 10 times over - I KNOW YOU WON'T GRASP IT - and then keep reading it, pea head

Boy, I really struck a nerve with you Sharky. I’ve told you all along if it makes you feel better you need to continue to believe all the casinos could do to make more money is by moving the cut card further back. That’s your call. I don’t care. Don’t get so worked up about it. It’s not that important.