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Thread: Counting system change or add side counting?

  1. #1


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    Counting system change or add side counting?

    Hi I've basically been using RPC for shoe games for the last several years and it's been working perfectly for me. I can use it as easily and with as much speed and accuracy as hi/low but the problem is my location has changed and I'm playing mostly single and double deck games now.

    I realise the betting correlation is less important in these games and the playing efficiency much more so.

    So I'm at a crossroads in terms of what to do regarding my counting system. The way I see it there are 2 options for me going forward:

    1. Learn to add some side counting in to improve the playing efficiency to the RPC.

    2. Learn a whole new system... I'm leaning towards VAPC with ace side count.

    I'd prefer the first option purely because I'm so adept and familiar with RPC at this stage it would be a pain to learn another system. The problem with this option is that unfortunately it seems to be an outdated system with little popularity these days and thus I cant find a shred of information anywhere about implementing a side count with RPC to improve its playing efficiency.
    Last edited by angle_sh00ter; 08-01-2018 at 11:06 PM.

  2. #2


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    For 'pitch' games (that is 1D/2D games), side counting the Ace is important for better insurance and certain doubles/splits.

    If you want to change systems, I would recommend HOII. It's close to that of RPC, except that the 3 and the 6 are counted as 1 and the Ace is not reckoned, so an Ace Side Count is paramount to beat the game for proper betting.

    My recommendation: If you are going back and forth between 1/2D games and shoe games, stick with RPC and practice for side counting Aces for playing departures in the pitch games. It is simpler than trying for a new system. When I went from KO to HOII, there was a lot of work to do. Over time, it is simple for me to case a deck pretty quickly and accurately. Another rank you may want to consider side counting is the 7. If you don't have the book, consider purchasing "Theory of Blackack" by Peter Griffin. Also, make sure you have "Blackjack Attack" from Don Schlesinger.

    If you want to go the other route and learn a new system: again, try to learn HOII. You can still use HOII for shoe games; however, side counting into shoes is difficult.

  3. #3


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    Just stay with your count. I use HiLo for both 2D and 6D and it works fine. I was in a losing streak a year or so ago and was thinking of a change to a higher level count and posted on a couple of forums. On BJ21 and another forum, I found strong advice to stay with the count I was familiar and good with, to spend my time being more selective. I started playing greater attention to playing condifions, number of players, penetration and concentration.Here on this forum, the resident pro s believe in higher counts.


    I believe Don S used to use RPC, maybe he will chip in.

    I don't think anyone wants a which count thread anyway.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Just stay with your count. I use HiLo for both 2D and 6D and it works fine. I was in a losing streak a year or so ago and was thinking of a change to a higher level count and posted on a couple of forums. On BJ21 and another forum, I found strong advice to stay with the count I was familiar and good with, to spend my time being more selective. I started playing greater attention to playing condifions, number of players, penetration and concentration.Here on this forum, the resident pro s believe in higher counts.


    I believe Don S used to use RPC, maybe he will chip in.

    I don't think anyone wants a which count thread anyway.
    +1
    It's also important not to underestimate the fact that you're so relaxed with the count you know, which is a perfectly good count. Particularly with 1 and 2D games they're gonna be watching your body language much more closely and if you appear to be working too hard at what your doing you'll be flagged much more easily. If it ain't broke don't fix it....

  5. #5
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    He said he is using and is comfortable with RPC.

  6. #6


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    You need to assess the costs/benefits of changing your count. You will generally get about 10 - 15% more out of SD or DD games by swtiching from RPC to HO2. For more info, you can check out the comparative SCORE charts in BJA3, page 171.

    IMO, if you're going to be playing primarily SD and DD games going forward, I would consider changing to HO2. Changing counts for an experienced counter is not that difficult, especially when applied to SD and DD games. Experiment with a new count on CVBJ and see if you aren't surprised on how fast you can pick it up.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    He said he is using and is comfortable with RPC.
    Folks, listen to the voice of experience!!! We don't need another count debate. Thank you Tthree.
    "Your honor, with all due respect: if you're going to try my case for me, I wish you wouldn't lose it."

    Fictitious Boston Attorney Frank Galvin (Paul Newman - January 26, 1925 - September 26, 2008) in The Verdict, 1982, lambasting Trial Judge Hoyle (Milo Donal O'Shea - June 2, 1926 - April 2, 2013) - http://imdb.com/title/tt0084855/

  8. #8


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    I switched from Hi-Lo to Halves a couple months ago, and I'm just now getting to the point where I can count a deck down in under 20 seconds, and even then only with about 50% success. 25 seconds, almost always get it right though. I practice it maybe an average of half an hour a day, some days more. Case in point, it does take time, and practice, to get to where you'll need to be to use it naturally in live play, and that's time you could be using to play with your already sufficient count. If you're actively playing with RPC while learning the new one, you might be okay, but it might mess with your head.. especially the different indexes. Really I think the #1 factor is how much spare time you have to commit to learning a new one, and if you're feeling up to the effort. Yes it'll benefit you, but will those extra dollars be worth the extra hours of work on the side? That's for you to try to figure out.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Just stay with your count. I use HiLo for both 2D and 6D and it works fine. I was in a losing streak a year or so ago and was thinking of a change to a higher level count and posted on a couple of forums. On BJ21 and another forum, I found strong advice to stay with the count I was familiar and good with, to spend my time being more selective. I started playing greater attention to playing condifions, number of players, penetration and concentration.Here on this forum, the resident pro s believe in higher counts.

    I believe Don S used to use RPC, maybe he will chip in.

    I don't think anyone wants a which count thread anyway.
    FWIW, both Norm and I have used RPC for decades.

    Don

  10. #10


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    Thanks for all the replies. I really should make it clear that I do want to improve on the RPC or at least make it more optimised for pitch games. If that's not doable or practical I'm willing to relearn a better suited count for the games I'm playing now. (As I'm Not intending to play shoe games again)

    That leaves the obvious question of how to use the information from side counting to improve my playing efficiency with RPC?

    Ive not found anything written on this for RPC side count adjustments.

    Im assuming that with an excess of remaining aces i should take insurance less and vice versa.
    Other than that I'm not sure how an ace side count would effect other playing decisions... it seems like it's more beneficial to improve betting correlation for ace neutral counting systems.

    8s and 9s are both neutral in RPC... I'm wondering if there is any merit to side counting them for the purpose of inproving playing efficiency.

  11. #11


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    I too have used the RPC. The thing's so frickin' powerful there's no point to side counts.
    Quote Originally Posted by angle_sh00ter View Post
    (As I'm Not intending to play shoe games again)
    Well in this case a level 2 count, like the Advanced Point Count you mentioned, with an Ace side count is ideal. I switched from Advanced Omega II with Ace SC to the RPC w/o problems. You'll notice situations not seen with ace reckoned counts like a high running count w/ a lot of ten cards remaining, but your Ace SC shows a shortage.

    Quote Originally Posted by angle_sh00ter View Post
    1. Learn to add some side counting in to improve the playing efficiency to the RPC.

    2. Learn a whole new system... I'm leaning towards VAPC with ace side count.

    I'd prefer the first option purely because I'm so adept and familiar with RPC at this stage it would be a pain to learn another system.
    1. Don't add Ace SC to RPC. Optimizing RPC for single & double deck pitch games is not practical.

    2. Learn a new system since you're switching to pitch games is a good idea. Quarter deck estimation is important, if you're good with this and you can add/subtract multiples of 2 for your Ace SC/running count adjustments, go for it.

    Since you prefer the RPC you can just stick with it too if you want to keep it simple.

  12. #12
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    Something to consider. The gain from adding a side count to any count is proportional to the playing strength of the count it is added to. So, while side counting will improve any count some, it is best to start with a really strong playing count if you are going to go to the effort of adding side count(s) for playing decisions. Of course most strong playing counts are ace neutral so you already are side counting aces. The ace compromise counts, that count the ace as half the T, have a better PE than fully ace reckoned counts but not as good as ace neutral counts. I know people that keep multiple side counts easily enough, but most find one side count enough. For the latter an ace compromise count is a good fit for adding a side count for playing more accurately.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Something to consider. The gain from adding a side count to any count is proportional to the playing strength of the count it is added to. So, while side counting will improve any count some, it is best to start with a really strong playing count if you are going to go to the effort of adding side count(s) for playing decisions. Of course most strong playing counts are ace neutral so you already are side counting aces. The ace compromise counts, that count the ace as half the T, have a better PE than fully ace reckoned counts but not as good as ace neutral counts. I know people that keep multiple side counts easily enough, but most find one side count enough. For the latter an ace compromise count is a good fit for adding a side count for playing more accurately.
    I know one of two long term pros who will be groaning at the not so shuttle promotion of higher level counts.

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