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  1. #1
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Casino cheating threads

    Any of us that have spent time on gaming related forums knows that there are many threads about casino cheating. Obviously, there exist actual cases of cheating; albeit the substantial majority of cases that come to memory involve dealers cheating, not the casinos themselves. By cheating I mean rigging of the odds, not rip-off games like 6:5 BJ or confiscation of chips, etc. Also, as most people know, the vast majority of complaints are simply by people looking for excuses for losses. This has been true as long as gaming has existed. My great grandfather was shot dead in a Poker game.

    So, if the majority of posts asserting rigging of the games are false; that means the majority of such posts are libelous under the law. Now, I have a problem with hosting libel, for moral and ethical reasons as well as legal. So, the question is how to deal with such threads. It is possible that a player here has been cheated – and that should be discussed. But, it’s just as obvious that most claims are false – and accusations without damn good foundation should not be cavalierly tossed about on a public forum.

    Comments?
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  2. #2


    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Moses has been trying to warn you for days now about this situation. He recognized this problem well in advance.

    Ps When does he get a parole board hearing?

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    So, if the majority of posts asserting rigging of the games are false; that means the majority of such posts are libelous under the law. Now, I have a problem with hosting libel, for moral and ethical reasons as well as legal
    I think the recent cheating thread has merit. It was posted by a credible player with a long history of play (despite the fact you two have had your differences and he has been re-banned). I also see merit in cutting off idiots like ZK and BJG007, who have a long history of immaturity and conspiracy theories.

    Would you have treated this issue differently, if bigplayer, T3, or I, for example, initiated the cheating thread?

    Regarding the legality issue, this has been vetted many timea in court (AOL, Ebay, etc.). you are just the venue with no liability.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    I think the recent cheating thread has merit.
    So do I, but, the subject should not have been allowed to turn into threads. One post would have been sufficient as a warning for others to make up their own minds and close the thread.

  5. #5
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    I think the recent cheating thread has merit. It was posted by a credible player with a long history of play (despite the fact you two have had your differences and he has been re-banned). I also see merit in cutting off idiots like ZK and BJG007, who have a long history of immaturity and conspiracy theories.
    He was not "rebanned". He was permanently banned. And, he is not credible.


    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post

    Would you have treated this issue differently, if bigplayer, T3, or I, for example, initiated the cheating thread?
    If started by a credible poster, I would find it credible. If bigplayer said the Jack of Spades spit him in the eye, I'd leave it up. But, I'd make sure his password wasn't compromised.


    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post

    Regarding the legality issue, this has been vetted many timea in court (AOL, Ebay, etc.). you are just the venue with no liability.
    I'm talking about libel as an immoral act, not a worry over legal action. However, I do not have AOL or eBay's lawyers and bankroll.
    Last edited by Norm; 07-27-2018 at 04:34 AM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  6. #6


    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    Would you have treated this issue differently, if bigplayer, T3, or I, for example, initiated the cheating thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    If started by a credible poster, I would find it credible.
    Norm, whether or not you consider someone credible the story was substantiated by an established member who was profiting "as well as alleged unknown others who became upset" because of the fact. Are you ignoring this information, or are you implying Three is also not credible?
    Last edited by BoSox; 07-27-2018 at 04:49 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    Norm, whether or not you consider someone credible the story was substantiated by an established member who was profiting "as well as alleged unknown others who became upset" because of the fact. Are you ignoring this information, or are you implying Three is also not credible?
    The games are not close to me. I rarely play them. I have family I rarely visit in the Pittsburgh area and sometimes go to the casino in question on those visits. I always make adjustments for each casino when I play. They all offer different game conditions. Usually it is wonging. With insane pen I make adjustments so I don't get killed when my deck assessment weakness would cause my TCs to be way off and make that last half deck or so be played and bet very inaccurately. The casinos that I regularly frequent that had alleged been cheating I won with no adjustments. The point I made was when the Genius said I missed the boat on it was that he was the one that missed any boat if it actually existed.

    In almost every thread he derailed into this crap or started on it, I kept telling him if he thought this was going on STFU and learn how to beat the nonrandom shuffle. I said there are two possibilities. One is this isn't going on and his posts are hurting the AP community. The other is it is going on and he is posting a blueprint for other casinos to use to make counting ineffective. He didn't just make the allegations. He posted what deck compositions would give the casinos a huge advantage. Others also posted how to arrange cards to for the casinos to cheat in order to get a much larger advantage in the Spiderman thread. If this is actually happening that has to be the dumbest thing anyone can do. I said that repeatedly but the Genius kept researching what rigged shuffles would give the casinos the biggest advantage and posting what they were for every casino to read and drool over. How insanely stupid can you be? The way he handled it, both possibilities are very damaging to the AP community. All he had to do was say that he suspects they are rigging the shuffle. Any details are unnecessary and would be unadvisable for obvious reasons of not causing this to spread if it is true.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    The casinos that I regularly frequent that had alleged been cheating I won with no adjustments. The point I made was when the Genius said I missed the boat on it was that he was the one that missed any boat if it actually existed.
    In the post in question you wrote:

    "I missed the boat? The entire time I have been telling you to STFU and learn how to beat the non-random shuffles. If you didn't do that you missed the boat and your big mouth blew the opportunity. I told you that would happen. I told you I had no problem beating these games. I never said I was counting. Why would I expose the play? Most casinos near me are honest so my opportunities were limited. You had them right in your backyard and missed out. Next time just STFU and exploit the non-random game."

    Repeating a point you made in the first above quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    The point I made was when the Genius said I missed the boat on it was that he was the one that missed any boat if it actually existed.
    If it actually existed? Three is still trying to keep the play alive, just like the Spanish 21 play.
    Last edited by BoSox; 07-27-2018 at 10:24 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    If it actually existed?
    To prove it exists you need to do extensive statistical research or have access tone of the machines. The casinos I think might be doing it are so far from me that I rarely frequent them. Only some of the rare time I visit the family I have in Pittsburgh. The casinos they say do it in my area I needed no adjustments to beat them. Of course the Genius says that is because they never pushed the magic button. My sample size in the Pittsburgh area casinos is so small that I can't say they are rigging anything for sure. If you play enough you get a feel for how to make adjustments. Like there is no formula for floating advantage adjustments but you probably notice the certainty of results goes up as you get deeper into the shoe. Someone that can has enough experience to make adjustments by feel would just be more conservative early in the shoe than late in the shoe. If you want to deflect heat results will drive the adjustments. Like if you are winning like crazy early in the shoe you are not going to be conservative. But if you are losing all your bets you might want to lag behind on pressing them as the count increases early in the shoe. I don't recommend this for people that haven't done the research or played enough, but I am sure most veterans know what I am talking about. The point is I made adjustments after playing there for a few blue moons. My system is very versatile or making adjustments. having 500+ data bins rather than a couple of dozen is like I have a fine tuning dial that other systems don't have.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    To prove it exists you [... wall of text...] My system is very versatile or making adjustments. having 500+ data bins rather than a couple of dozen is like I have a fine tuning dial that other systems don't have.
    I really don't want yet another thread to turn to shit, but I can't help but comment on your last posts, Three. You have clearly been intimating that a) beast mode exists, and b) that you have been taking advantage of it.

    I'm not a hater but you've been trying to play both ends against the middle on this one and it's dishonest.

  11. #11


    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    The games are not close to me. I rarely play them. I have family I rarely visit in the Pittsburgh area and sometimes go to the casino in question on those visits. I always make adjustments for each casino when I play. They all offer different game conditions. Usually it is wonging. With insane pen I make adjustments so I don't get killed when my deck assessment weakness would cause my TCs to be way off and make that last half deck or so be played and bet very inaccurately. The casinos that I regularly frequent that had alleged been cheating I won with no adjustments. The point I made was when the Genius said I missed the boat on it was that he was the one that missed any boat if it actually existed.

    In almost every thread he derailed into this crap or started on it, I kept telling him if he thought this was going on STFU and learn how to beat the nonrandom shuffle. I said there are two possibilities. One is this isn't going on and his posts are hurting the AP community. The other is it is going on and he is posting a blueprint for other casinos to use to make counting ineffective. He didn't just make the allegations. He posted what deck compositions would give the casinos a huge advantage. Others also posted how to arrange cards to for the casinos to cheat in order to get a much larger advantage in the Spiderman thread. If this is actually happening that has to be the dumbest thing anyone can do. I said that repeatedly but the Genius kept researching what rigged shuffles would give the casinos the biggest advantage and posting what they were for every casino to read and drool over. How insanely stupid can you be? The way he handled it, both possibilities are very damaging to the AP community. All he had to do was say that he suspects they are rigging the shuffle. Any details are unnecessary and would be unadvisable for obvious reasons of not causing this to spread if it is true.
    Well, the casino cheating is hard to prove. You cannot record the sessions. Just depend on the experience to declare it is not the variance but the non-random shuffler. Anyway the casino I told Three has been sold to the new owner. They closed most tables to reconfigure the casino. After the casino reopened all tables this week, I came back to check the status. For my recent two visits, the shufflers all deal true random shoes. It is now Genius-certified BJ game. I guess the old owner gets away committing a perfect crime. I am also happy that I no longer need to drive long distance to play a fair Blackjack game any more.

  12. #12
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    He also accused me of doing vile things to children, made physical threats, and harassed me by phone and e-mail. He has a truth value of zero in my mind. Please don't bring up permanently banned members. They will have no voice here. Wikipedia has an essay on blocked members attempting to return as socks called DENY. It provides a helpful explanation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipe...ny_recognition

    Now, do you have a comment on the actual purpose of this thread?
    Last edited by Norm; 07-26-2018 at 02:04 PM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Now, do you have a comment on the actual purpose of this thread?
    Yes, I do, I think you are correct that you are now starting to take the cheating threads seriously.

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