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Thread: Is this possible?

  1. #27


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    I am not a fan of measuring play and results in hours. I stopped doing so years ago. All hours are not created equal, depending on number of players at table and dealer speed. And that variation can be quite dramatic. Think heads up play with a fast dealer, 200+ rounds per hours vs a full table with slow dealer and slow players making 1, maybe 2 side bets, in which you might be talking under 30 rounds per hours. Yes I know that is why we have "averages", but I just don't see the point in that. What really matters is rounds played. That is what N0 is based on, that is what win rate is based on, so that is what I track, rounds played, not hours or some other artificial measurement.

    Now that said, almost a decade ago, when I first moved to Vegas (yep it has been that long....time flies), I used to leave my home near the strip say 9am-ish and return at 10, 11 pm, sometimes midnight. And that was pretty much 7 days a week, maybe 6 during football season. I was young in my 20's and single and blackjack was my life. BUT, I didn't play BJ 13-15 hours a day. That time away from home, included play, and bouncing around between casinos. Playing a short session, hit and run style, travel between even casinos in close proximity eats up time. It also included eating several meals a day and also breaks. Sometimes I would take an hour and watch a baseball game in a sportsbook, or even just sit and watch people for 30-60 minutes.

    So in rounds played, which is what I measured, I was getting 80,000. but I was probably averaging 40 rounds an hour, maybe less.

    As time went on, I have been able to greatly improve 2 areas. I get my rounds in, consuming far less actual time (hours), probably averaging 65-70 rounds per hour and I have been able to increase my win rate /100 rounds, while playing the same betting levels, by incorporating a couple techniques. End result is that playing the same betting levels, and same short session, hit & run style, I spend much less time, earning the same money as 8-10 years ago. More than cut it in half. I am out of my home related to BJ probably 5-6 hours a day and that includes a meal.

    So when I hear someone talk about "hours", my first question is just what are they talking about? Actual time sitting at a table? Because that is not really how blackjack works, there is misc time associated with bj play, including keeping records and administrative things. It has been my experience that most players talking about 2000 hours a year (let alone 3000 or 4000), which is equivalent to a fulltime 40 hour work week, are players that really don't understand what it means to play blackjack full-time. There is no comparison to sitting in a cubical or behind a desk somewhere.
    Last edited by spiderman; 07-17-2018 at 07:43 PM.

  2. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
    I am not a fan of measuring play and results in hours. I stopped doing so years ago. All hours are not created equal, depending on number of players at table and dealer speed. And that variation can be quite dramatic. Think heads up play with a fast dealer, 200+ rounds per hours vs a full table with slow dealer and slow players making 1, maybe 2 side bets, in which you might be talking under 30 rounds per hours. Yes I know that is why we have "averages", but I just don't see the point in that. What really matters is rounds played. That is what N0 is based on, that is what win rate is based on, so that is what I track, rounds played, not hours or some other artificial measurement.

    Now that said, almost a decade ago, when I first moved to Vegas (yep it has been that long....time flies), I used to leave my home near the strip say 9am-ish and return at 10, 11 pm, sometimes midnight. And that was pretty much 7 days a week, maybe 6 during football season. I was young in my 20's and single and blackjack was my life. BUT, I didn't play BJ 13-15 hours a day. That time away from home, included play, and bouncing around between casinos. Playing a short session, hit and run style, travel between even casinos in close proximity eats up time. It also included eating several meals a day and also breaks. Sometimes I would take an hour and watch a baseball game in a sportsbook, or even just sit and watch people for 30-60 minutes.

    So in rounds played, which is what I measured, I was getting 80,000. but I was probably averaging 40 rounds an hour, maybe less.

    As time went on, I have been able to greatly improve 2 areas. I get my rounds in, consuming far less actual time (hours), probably averaging 65-70 rounds per hour and I have been able to increase my win rate /100 rounds, while playing the same betting levels, by incorporating a couple techniques. End result is that playing the same betting levels, and same short session, hit & run style, I spend much less time, earning the same money as 8-10 years ago. More than cut it in half. I am out of my home related to BJ probably 6 hours a day and that includes a meal.

    So when I hear someone talk about "hours", my first question is just what are they talking about? Actual time sitting at a table? Because that is not really how blackjack works, there is misc time associated with bj play, including keeping records and administrative things. It has been my experience that most players talking about 2000 hours a year (let alone 3000 or 4000), which is equivalent to a fulltime 40 hour work week, are players that really don't understand what it means to play blackjack full-time. There is no comparison to sitting in a cubical or behind a desk somewhere.
    I recall your posts from years ago. You are an anomaly. Very few, if any, could have survived hand to mouth. I sure as hell would not have followed that route. My Blackjack beginnings came with already established resources.

    My reference to hours, which you clarified to your terms of reference, was in regards to time committed. You correctly mentioned, and I agree, that hours (the term that I refer to) should be qualified to quality hours, maximizing hph, along with the better rules, heads up or low table population, and conditions suitable to steady income generation.

  3. #29


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    Quote Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
    Because that is not really how blackjack works
    I disagree. It's like counting rounds for N0. Watched, but unplayed rounds count. Same with EV. Hourly EV is the time in a casino. Yeah, we can exclude the 45 minutes in the buffet, but playing, scouting, etc. count in my book.

  4. #30


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    Spiderman,

    When I say hours, I only include my time at the table. I do not count my time eating, I do not count my time going to the bathroom, and if I Wong out of a negative shoe that I think will not recover, I will stop my stop watch and re-start it once I sit back down for a fresh shoe. Obviously, I also do not count my travel hours or anything like that. Just time at the table.

  5. #31


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    Spiderman, if I use your way of counting work hours, I don't think I ever worked a full time job in my life. I was paid as a full time employee by both state and federal agencies for being at the office 40 hours a week.I

    My spouse is paid hourly but it does not mean she is working every minute. Often, in between clients or when clients cancel an appointment, she still gets paid while sitting around the office.

    For BJ hours, I compromise. I count hours at a table but do not factor in time spent in casino waiting. It's too complicated.

    You are too harsh on yourself. You should consider it work when you enter a casino for the day and leave a casino to return home. Everything in between should be work like anywhere else.

    All of us seem to distort this to make yourself look and feel good. If all employers were like you, nobody will receive a pay they can live on.

  6. #32


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    You are too harsh on yourself. You should consider it work when you enter a casino for the day and leave a casino to return home. Everything in between should be work like anywhere else.
    It’s not about being harsh on yourself, it’s about being honest with yourself. There’s no EV when you’re walking/driving to the next casino. I guess if you want to get technical, there is, but it can’t be calculated. I’m not saying that isn’t part of the job and it shouldn’t be considered work. I’m saying that when you add up your earnings and you want to see if those results align with your EV, counting hours the way you just described would distort those results.

  7. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryemo View Post
    It’s not about being harsh on yourself, it’s about being honest with yourself. There’s no EV when you’re walking/driving to the next casino. I guess if you want to get technical, there is, but it can’t be calculated. I’m not saying that isn’t part of the job and it shouldn’t be considered work. I’m saying that when you add up your earnings and you want to see if those results align with your EV, counting hours the way you just described would distort those results.
    When I refer to hours, I m referring to hours played. It's how i get my best measurement. Waiting, driving, eating, resting, etc., are simply overheads of time. My next trip is coming up shortly. I know that I will have 15-20 hours of play time over 3 days, maybe a few more. I could refer to EV per day, but I that would be a distortion, since amounts of time played would differ.

  8. #34


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    If I didn’t have a family, I’d try to play 800 to 1,000 hrs. But for me, that isn’t realistic, so that’s why I will cap out at 500 or 600 hrs.
    You know what to do....

  9. #35


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryemo View Post
    There’s no EV when you’re walking/driving to the next casino.
    I beg to differ although more on a technical point of view. Some players will invest portions of their playing bank in liquid and non-liquid assets depending on the size of the investment. So factually your statement may or may not be true depending on the player.

  10. #36


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryemo View Post
    It’s not about being harsh on yourself, it’s about being honest with yourself. There’s no EV when you’re walking/driving to the next casino. I guess if you want to get technical, there is, but it can’t be calculated. I’m not saying that isn’t part of the job and it shouldn’t be considered work. I’m saying that when you add up your earnings and you want to see if those results align with your EV, counting hours the way you just described would distort those results.
    How can you, as a newbie, compare a BJ profession versus a job that pays $30 per hour? That $30 construction job would actually be a $100 an hour if you ignore the breaks, the waiting around, the weather related stoppage, etc.

    My Secretary salary was equivalent to $20 an hour. If you ignore lulls, lunch breaks, bathroom breaks, slow days where she played alongside or talked to her mother, she made double the amount.

    You cannot compare BJ with most other professions and are deluding yourself. It's like that Secretary claiming she is making $40 an hour. The cook at a convenience store that works the night shift is making 3 times what the day shift worked makes because there are nights when there is little actual work.

  11. #37


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    How can you, as a newbie, compare a BJ profession versus a job that pays $30 per hour? That $30 construction job would actually be a $100 an hour if you ignore the breaks, the waiting around, the weather related stoppage, etc.

    My Secretary salary was equivalent to $20 an hour. If you ignore lulls, lunch breaks, bathroom breaks, slow days where she played alongside or talked to her mother, she made double the amount.

    You cannot compare BJ with most other professions and are deluding yourself. It's like that Secretary claiming she is making $40 an hour. The cook at a convenience store that works the night shift is making 3 times what the day shift worked makes because there are nights when there is little actual work.
    You completely missed the point. At what point was I comparing AP to a square job? They’re nothing alike...

    The only reason APs track their EV is to make sure their theoretical expectation eventually aligns with their actual earnings, and also to predetermin how many hours they need to log in at the tables in order to achieve a certain level of profits and overcome any expenses incurred along the way.

    If you want to track the amount of hours/days you spend inside of the casino and how many hours you spend driving to get there, then that’s fine. Maybe that’ll help put things into perspective and you can decide if the juice is worth the squeeze. But those stats should be separated from your EV generated at the tables, otherwise it’ll distort your results.

  12. #38


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    Zee
    Analogy
    A travelling commission salesman earns a percentage if his gross sales. Against those commissions, he measures the cost of earning those commisions. Expenses include gas, wear and tear on vehicle, accomodation, food. Expenses are deducted. A net is calculated, against which he must support his family, pay his bills, and of course, taxes.

    At the end if the day, the salesman must determine if the rewards are sufficient to offset his efforts. He either has the ability, or dies not have. It may or may not be time for a career change.

    Commisions for AP are earned against hours played. Everything else comes off the top. If I was your sales manager, I would not tell you that your expenses are too high. I would tell you that your commissions are not sufficient to cover your expenses. I would tell you not to work harder, but to work smarter. Commission sales people also have runs of bad variance.

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryemo View Post
    ....The only reason APs track their EV is to make sure their theoretical expectation eventually aligns with their actual earnings,..
    which is why I only track actual playing time

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