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Thread: I beleive El Cortez is cheating

  1. #1


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

    I beleive El Cortez is cheating

    This will sound like a conspiracy theory the likes that a former member here posts at several other sites through the community. And BTW, I am not that former member. And I fear Norm will deleagte this to the disadvantage forum. But I urge you to read the entire post and then play and see for yourself.

    First a little background. I have played El Cortez regularly for years, meaning multiple times per week. Hundreds of sessions per year. Unlike other players who find El Cortez unplayable because of the sweatiness that that are known for, I have found a way using a form of opposition betting to play regularly at EC with minimal heat. I combine this form of opposition betting with short sessions and showing bet spread but a couple times per session. And my results have been that every year, EC has been among my best individual casinos, usually top 2. Combined for the last 8 years, EC is my number 1 money maker.

    This year started out the same for me, doing quite well at EC. And then things changed about 3 months ago. At this point I want to describe the layout, so those familiar with EC will know what tables I am tabling about. As you enter from the corner of 6th and Fremont, the first 'pit' or group of tables is usually not open. These tables are only in operation during busier times, weekends and holidays. The next 'pit' or group of tables is always in use. And there are 2 double deck tables, one on each side of pit. These tables still remain the typical EC tables. My results are excellent and heat is typical of EC. They sweat even small stakes and small spreads. Opposition wagering seems to confuse them though, even at the green level. Tip: keep your wagers green, even when betting up to $200.

    Now at the end of this second pit, there are two new (in the last couple months) double deck games. They are the final two games (end games) of this second pit, before you hit the third pit. One of the games is next to a roulette game, for reference. Now these are the two games that I have had unusual results and have done some pretty significant research (trial size) on.

    These are $5 minimum games during the week, maybe $10 on weekends, with newer model ASMs. The kind that can be programmed by entering a code. Not only by my results but my observation of several hundred times through the shuffle of these machines, I believe these machines are in what you may have heard a former member refer to as "beast mode" Basically there is a clump of high cards somewhere in play. A significant clump. This results in every shoe or time through the 2 decks (until shuffle point) at some point reaching a TC of +4 or -4 EVERY single time through the cards.

    One of 3 scenarios. 1.) high card clump comes out at the beginning, resulting in a very negative count immediately, that remains, slowly moving back towards zero throughout the remaining cards. 2.) high card clump comes out later, either in the middle or end of cards that are played. This results in a rising count that always reaches TC+4, often more and then the high card clump comes out and the count returns close to zero before the shuffle. You might think this is a card counters dream but it is not. You are at a disadvantage for several rounds when low cards are coming out, and then push 20's when the high card clump comes out. If you are playing with several other players you will notice a round that almost everyone including dealer has 20's. 3,) is that the high card clump is after the shuffle, in which case the count rises throughout the played cards, the counter raising his bets with the rising count and the high value cards never come out (after the shuffle point).

    The machine, in this mode that I refer to as "beast mode" makes the high card clump. The player cutting determines the placement of the clump, meaning which of the 3 scenarios above will occur. And all 3 favor the house to varying degrees.

    So in my play of these two tables over the past few months, the first thing I noticed was my results, losing results, which I have never had at EC. As continued to play while I suspected what was going on, I noticed something else. There is no heat at these games. Those that play EC regularly know that you frequently see other card counters, usually very low level, small spread and often questionable skill. And you have probably witnessed other counters backed off and likely been backed off yourself. Well at these two tables, card counters spread blatantly and receive no heat. AND they lose!

    Over the last month, even though I strongly suspected what was going on, I have continued to play this game, 4-5 times a week, flat betting table minimum, just so I could have a reasonable sample size before I made such accusations, which I am sure sound like a conspiracy theory.

    So, for those that play El Cortez, I just wanted to post a heads up.....BEWARE. For those that doubt what I am saying or want to take a look for yourself, I urge you to. Go in and flat bet these two specific tables. You will witness a high card clump with one of the three scenarios stated above....every single time through the cards. TC of +4 or more or -4 or I guess lower (since dealing with a negative). And spread if you want, you will notice the lack of usual EC heat at these two tables.

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
    This will sound like a conspiracy theory the likes that a former member here posts at several other sites through the community. And BTW, I am not that former member. And I fear Norm will deleagte this to the disadvantage forum. But I urge you to read the entire post and then play and see for yourself.

    First a little background. I have played El Cortez regularly for years, meaning multiple times per week. Hundreds of sessions per year. Unlike other players who find El Cortez unplayable because of the sweatiness that that are known for, I have found a way using a form of opposition betting to play regularly at EC with minimal heat. I combine this form of opposition betting with short sessions and showing bet spread but a couple times per session. And my results have been that every year, EC has been among my best individual casinos, usually top 2. Combined for the last 8 years, EC is my number 1 money maker.

    This year started out the same for me, doing quite well at EC. And then things changed about 3 months ago. At this point I want to describe the layout, so those familiar with EC will know what tables I am tabling about. As you enter from the corner of 6th and Fremont, the first 'pit' or group of tables is usually not open. These tables are only in operation during busier times, weekends and holidays. The next 'pit' or group of tables is always in use. And there are 2 double deck tables, one on each side of pit. These tables still remain the typical EC tables. My results are excellent and heat is typical of EC. They sweat even small stakes and small spreads. Opposition wagering seems to confuse them though, even at the green level. Tip: keep your wagers green, even when betting up to $200.

    Now at the end of this second pit, there are two new (in the last couple months) double deck games. They are the final two games (end games) of this second pit, before you hit the third pit. One of the games is next to a roulette game, for reference. Now these are the two games that I have had unusual results and have done some pretty significant research (trial size) on.

    These are $5 minimum games during the week, maybe $10 on weekends, with newer model ASMs. The kind that can be programmed by entering a code. Not only by my results but my observation of several hundred times through the shuffle of these machines, I believe these machines are in what you may have heard a former member refer to as "beast mode" Basically there is a clump of high cards somewhere in play. A significant clump. This results in every shoe or time through the 2 decks (until shuffle point) at some point reaching a TC of +4 or -4 EVERY single time through the cards.

    One of 3 scenarios. 1.) high card clump comes out at the beginning, resulting in a very negative count immediately, that remains, slowly moving back towards zero throughout the remaining cards. 2.) high card clump comes out later, either in the middle or end of cards that are played. This results in a rising count that always reaches TC+4, often more and then the high card clump comes out and the count returns close to zero before the shuffle. You might think this is a card counters dream but it is not. You are at a disadvantage for several rounds when low cards are coming out, and then push 20's when the high card clump comes out. If you are playing with several other players you will notice a round that almost everyone including dealer has 20's. 3,) is that the high card clump is after the shuffle, in which case the count rises throughout the played cards, the counter raising his bets with the rising count and the high value cards never come out (after the shuffle point).

    The machine, in this mode that I refer to as "beast mode" makes the high card clump. The player cutting determines the placement of the clump, meaning which of the 3 scenarios above will occur. And all 3 favor the house to varying degrees.

    So in my play of these two tables over the past few months, the first thing I noticed was my results, losing results, which I have never had at EC. As continued to play while I suspected what was going on, I noticed something else. There is no heat at these games. Those that play EC regularly know that you frequently see other card counters, usually very low level, small spread and often questionable skill. And you have probably witnessed other counters backed off and likely been backed off yourself. Well at these two tables, card counters spread blatantly and receive no heat. AND they lose!

    Over the last month, even though I strongly suspected what was going on, I have continued to play this game, 4-5 times a week, flat betting table minimum, just so I could have a reasonable sample size before I made such accusations, which I am sure sound like a conspiracy theory.

    So, for those that play El Cortez, I just wanted to post a heads up.....BEWARE. For those that doubt what I am saying or want to take a look for yourself, I urge you to. Go in and flat bet these two specific tables. You will witness a high card clump with one of the three scenarios stated above....every single time through the cards. TC of +4 or more or -4 or I guess lower (since dealing with a negative). And spread if you want, you will notice the lack of usual EC heat at these two tables.
    This is exactly what I observed in the east coast. Sorry to hear it spread to Las Vegas. In east coast, only desperate Caesars gaming and some small independent casinos dare to use beast mode ASM against counters in my opinion. But better safe than sorry-- play hand shuffled games instead.

  3. #3


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    is there even the slightest chance that the Gaming Commission has an honest person left who gives a shit about this, or do you figure they're all on El Cortez's payroll?

    What do you intend to do with your information?

    Don

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
    Well I thought I was doing the above post in the anonymizer form, but that didn't seem to work and is not allowing me that option in edit mode.

    No matter...what is done is done.
    Dear Anonymous
    Reminds if the time I organized yearly golf tournaments for the SHUL. I hustled all of the hole sponsors, selling 3 exclusive hole sponsors per hole. The schtick was great. One guy, I had his and his wife's name, with last name n to the sign. He later told me that he preferred his tzedaka (charity) to be anonymous, so, the next year, his hole sign read - Dr. richard and Gail Anonymous.

    Anyways, you're saying way to much - you should consider deleting this post. Having said that, screw around and simply spread 1-2 for awhile, and keep notes. I've gone through some horrendous result periods with stores, only to come back and beat the shit out of them.

    Regardless of how greedy stores are, even in that jurisdiction, the repercussions of getting caught outweigh any benefits. Otoh, who knows?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    This is exactly what I observed in the east coast. Sorry to hear it spread to Las Vegas.
    I wonder why casino cheating is spreading? You know the casinos that have been cheating wouldn't say a word about it for fear of being exposed and being fined hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars or even worse lose their gaming license. Maybe some blabber mouth has been talking nonstop about it and even researching how the casinos can gain an even bigger advantage and posting it in an open forum. The problem with smart people is that smarts and common sense are two completely different things. The most dangerous people out there are very smart but have little to no common sense. I just wonder what this poster thought would happen if he posted what he posted and he was right. I just wish this poster had even the smallest amount of common sense. I pointed this out many times but he just wouldn't shut up or at least keep things vague like Spiderman did (oops almost used the wrong handle there). If you guys can prove it go to the commission and have a talk about nonrandom shuffles. Of course with a little study you should be able to beat the crap out of almost any nonrandom shuffle. You just won't be doing it card counting. My guess is when people start beating the crap out of the games they are cheating at the practice will disappear.

  6. #6


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    Could someone please tell me what opposition wagering is?

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    is there even the slightest chance that the Gaming Commission has an honest person left who gives a shit about this, or do you figure they're all on El Cortez's payroll?
    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post

    What do you intend to do with your information?

    Don
    Don, I myself am a person who always doubts the kind of accusations that I just made. For several years, whenever I have head any kind of accusation of casino cheating, I voiced my doubt, thinking 1.) there is no need for casinos to cheat, as they have the advantage and 2.) in this corporate era, there is more to lose than gain by doing so, fines, license and reputation. If a casino were to be found cheating that is a hard thing to overcome.

    I have always thought that in this day and age any cheating was more likely by a rouge dealer, than casino sponsored.

    But these machines have this capability and for no good reason. The mode that puts cards in order, for the purpose of identifying missing cards, you can understand. I would like someone from shufflemaster, or the industry, or the gaming commission to tell me what the "legitimate" purpose of such a clumping mode is?

    My concern is that this will spread. Until Gaming declares this illegal or "out of bounds", nothing is really "technically" illegal. And in order for Gaming to look into it, someone is going to have to bring a case. Selfishly, I am not the person to do so. I am in the
    middle
    of my AP career, and that kind of exposure, even if successful, would be far more damaging than beneficial to me at this point. So selfishly, I can not be the 'hero' that brings the case that will put an end to it.

    So for now, my reaction will be to avoid games that I am suspicious of, and it really is not that hard to recognize, once you start looking. You see
    unusually
    high counts both positive and negative, depending on the placement of the high card clump. And you see it EVERY time through the cards. It is very easy to recognize a round or two with mostly 20's pushing, when the high card clump does come out.

    So my answer of what I intend to do, is simply be vigilant and avoid games I have concerns over. But I did want to post a heads up "warning". And I hope others will also take a look and add confirmation to what I am saying. Maybe someone else will be in a better position to bring a case, which if this is indeed starting to occur, will be necessary for it to end.

  8. #8


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    I am not understanding this "hidden member" thing. Why didn't it work on my initial post?

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by CountinCanadian View Post
    Could someone please tell me what opposition wagering is?
    A young eager guy, like you, who happens to be in my General neck of the woods - email me - think it's time, and you should have my email.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Member Name Hidden View Post
    I am not understanding this "hidden member" thing. Why didn't it work on my initial post?
    The

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