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Thread: How bad is El Cortez?

  1. #27


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    This is simply relating your experience, as you claim and, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with posting this kind of thing.

    This, however is speculation on how casinos use OSN and an opinion on the overall impact of being on OSN and is the kind of post that many here are objecting to. You stated that, under the conditions you play, being on OSN is not an issue. You stated this as if it is a universal fact. Had you inserted "in my opinion", or "in my experience" somewhere, it would have been better.
    I understand your point Gronbog, but don’t you think the fact that the second paragraph followed the first paragraph most people would assume this is Zee’s opinion. Btw, I tend to agree with Zee on this one, especially after listening to a couple GMAE podcasts with Casino survliance expert Willy Allison. These were two excellent podcasts. In case people are interested in listening to them, one is #93 and the other one is #246. You can find them on Bob Dancer’s web site. Willy does the best job I’ve heard describing what OSN is. It’s a free membership club casinos started. Casinos got smart, instead of giving their information to agencies like Griffen and then paying Griffen for this information back, they decided to do this themselves. This is what OSN.

    I expect Zee is accurate in how most casinos use this information. Since they know any third rate casino can enter anything into OSN, they are going to first make their own judgment on the player. Once they are suspicious of someone being an AP, they will check OSN. If that person has a lot of entries in OSN from multiple casinos, they probably treat this person differently than if a person only has one entry from some rural no-name casino. This is my opinion based on Zee’s experience and listening to Willy Allison.

    Willy Allison is founder of World Game Protection Conference and works for the casinos but sounded like a very intelligent person. He got in some disagreements with Richard Mutchkin but I thought he held his own well and made the better argument. Btw, he lightheartedly challenged the blackjack ball people to a contest counting down a deck. He thought his surveillance people would win.

    Btw, I’ve always liked most of Zee’s post and get a lot out of them. I like that he expresses his views and is not intimidated by the group think here.
    Last edited by Dbs6582; 07-09-2018 at 11:46 AM.

  2. #28


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    Dbs, I only brought it up because, those who object to some of Zee's posts do so because they say he offers bad advice. When responding, Zee almost always says that he only relates his experiences. This is a case where he related his experience but then made a conclusion as a blanket statement, as if it applies to everyone who plays at his level. He also does this often, hence the objections. He may not realize that he is doing this, but when he makes statements like that he is, in fact, giving bad advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dbs6582 View Post
    I expect Zee is accurate in how most casinos use this information. Since they know any third rate casino can enter anything into OSN, they are going to first make their own judgment on the player. Once they are suspicious of someone being an AP, they will check OSN. If that person has a lot of entries in OSN from multiple casinos, they probably treat this person differently than if a person only has one entry from some rural no-name casino. This is my opinion based on Zee’s experience and listening to Willy Allison.
    The highlighted words show that you are also reaching conclusions via speculation. At least you added at the end that it is your opinion.

  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dbs6582 View Post
    Btw, I’ve always liked most of Zee’s post and get a lot out of them. I like that he expresses his views and is not intimidated by the group think here.
    What you call group think here is the combined experience of many many APs with a wide variety of styles, playing levels and BRs. Do you think that someone who thinks his personal experience of less than a decade playing recreationally is more accurate than the cumulative personal experiences of thousands of APs, many full-timers, over the course of many decades is someone you should take seriously?

  4. #30


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    The highlighted words show that you are also reaching conclusions via speculation. At least you added at the end that it is your opinion.
    Gronbog, isn’t “speculation” and “opinion” kind of two simlar words saying the same thing? I very clearly stated this is my opinion based on Zee’s experience and listening to a casino surveillance expert, and I still get called out. You can’t win with this group.

    One of the words you highlighted in my post was “probably”. Doesn’t that word indicate I’m speculating given the information I have. What’s wrong with that? Are opinions no longer welcome on this site unless they are approved by the bullies here monitoring the posts.

    Btw, I agree with everybody on this site...it’s better to not have an entry in OSN or any type of database for that matter. But as Zee and several people on this site have pointed out, it’s not the end of the world if it happens. After listening to Willy Allison I now understand better why this is the case. Some casinos are going to make their own assessment of your play and not trust other casino’s assessment of your play. They aren’t going to bar everyone who has had an entry into OSN. This is what I’d do if I ran a casino. It’s pretty common sense stuff. This is what I’ve liked about Zee’s posts. He makes some good common sense points for the low level AP, which I expect has a big audience here.

  5. #31


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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatian View Post
    Had a cute blonde dealer in single deck that kinda made up for things.
    I wonder what went wrong in her life that resulted in her being at the El Cortez.
    Opinions and Commentary on the Gaming Industry: The Bear Growls

  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by LVBear584 View Post
    I wonder what went wrong in her life that resulted in her being at the El Cortez.

    Probably a former 8-deck card counter.

  7. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    What you call group think here is the combined experience of many many APs with a wide variety of styles, playing levels and BRs. Do you think that someone who thinks his personal experience of less than a decade playing recreationally is more accurate than the cumulative personal experiences of thousands of APs, many full-timers, over the course of many decades is someone you should take seriously?
    Zee’s experience was only one data point I used to have an opinion on OSN. I mostly relied on Willy Allison’s
    opinion on OSN. He’s an expert in casino surveillance and has 35 years experience in this area. Even though he’s from Australia, he has worked and consulted for casinos throughout the world. Have you listened to his podcasts on GWAE? If you haven’t, it’s well worth your time.

    Willy was the first person who described OSN in a way where it made sense. I didn’t really know what it was until I listerend to this podcast.

    I also listen to the advice given by the pros on this site. Why can’t both the resident pro experts and Zee be correct? The way I see it is the pros and Zee are addressing different audiences. Zee is giving advice to the low level recreational AP, while the resident experts are giving advice for the high level full time player. It makes sense to me that casinos would treat these two groups differently.

  8. #34


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dbs6582 View Post
    Gronbog, isn’t “speculation” and “opinion” kind of two simlar words saying the same thing? I very clearly stated this is my opinion based on Zee’s experience and listening to a casino surveillance expert, and I still get called out. You can’t win with this group.
    I didn't call you out for that. I pointed out that you did what Zee didn't, which was to make it clear that it was speculation and opinion.

  9. #35


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    I didn't call you out for that. I pointed out that you did what Zee didn't, which was to make it clear that it was speculation and opinion.
    Got it. That helps. I read your post in the wrong way. Sorry about that.

  10. #36


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    The resident experts are experts on how to play the game of BJ. They have not played with a players card or been recently on OSN.

    I report my experiences and they get defensive. Not one will admit to the possibility that conditions on using a players card or playing rated or getting on OSN may have changed and it's not what it used to be.

    The resident pros are full timers and they just may not understand playing recreationally and part time. For instance, I believe it very useful to use a players card and to do it judiciously (maintaining comps including room and meals). I have been making trips with no housing or meal costs and even had the luxury of buying items using their $$ to buy gifts for the spouse.

    It's true the resident pros as T3 says have decades of experience but if they have not recently been in OS N or played with a card, I do not understand why they jump on me for reporting my experiences.

  11. #37
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    Back to the thread at hand

    Quote Originally Posted by nighterfighter View Post
    I've heard a lot of people say El Cortez is really sweaty, but from what I've seen they have some of the best BJ in Vegas it seems.

    I'll probably be visiting Vegas for the first time soon, (mainly for the non-gambling aspects, seeing shows/buffets/etc), but wanted to play a bit while I'm there. My counting skills are not super good yet, and I'd only be spreading like $5 to $30 at most.

    Do you guys think I'll run into any issues playing there? Or should I just flat-bet at El Cortez? Skip it entirely?

    Thanks.
    Feel free to play, but keep the expectations low. The place is cheap and looks like it.

    On the other hand, you may want to stick to craps since they have 10Xs odds and Triple Field 12. Several downtown casinos have 3-2 blackjack for $5. Just not DD games. For those you probably want to try Rampart, Aliante or Silverton.

  12. #38


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    Quote Originally Posted by COBeardown95 View Post
    Back to the thread at hand



    Feel free to play, but keep the expectations low. The place is cheap and looks like it.

    On the other hand, you may want to stick to craps since they have 10Xs odds and Triple Field 12. Several downtown casinos have 3-2 blackjack for $5. Just not DD games. For those you probably want to try Rampart, Aliante or Silverton.
    Hey, thanks! The family does like to play craps, so that might be a good call.

    So is El Cortez the only one with $5, 3:2 DD Blackjack?

  13. #39


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    Most of the Stations Casinos have $5 DD with 3:2
    Good pen too

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