Index plays that you wouldn't use

**Starchild** · 07-05-2018, 10:10 PM

I play single deck and since the shuffles come often I typically sit through all the bad counts so I'm trying to learn more index plays. I also like learning as many as I can because it makes me look like a bad player and lowers variance as well but I am wondering which you wouldn't even consider because they might bring too much heat. I use UBZ2 and with CVData I generated all of the index plays just to see what they were. Some of them are more standard but I still have a hard time going through with them because I'm fairly new and don't want to get barred before I've really gotten started.

The index plays I'm looking for an opinion on are:

Hitting hard 17 v A
Hitting 16 v 6
Doubling with a 7
Doubling with a soft 20/19
Splitting 10s
Taking insurance when you have a bad hand

I'm asking about if and how you could get away with them more so than whether or not you think they're worth it to learn. What would be your response if you started to get heat for it?

**Three** · 07-06-2018, 07:23 AM

If the SD game is heavily sweated you want to forgot some index plays or not sit through poor counts. Most opt for the former for obvious reasons if you ever played SD.

**hitthat16** · 07-07-2018, 05:14 PM

17vA - I wouldn’t
16v6 - I also wouldn’t
Double 7 - Still wouldn’t
Double soft 20 - Depends on the store
Double soft 19 - Yes I’ll do this when called for
Splitting 10s - Usually won’t, but will at some casinos.
Insurance with bad hand - All day, er’day. Insurance is too valuable to give up. My excuse for insuring a bad hand is “I hope you have it cause I want to get bailed out of this horrible hand.”

**Reign Man** · 07-07-2018, 06:35 PM

Agree with hitthat. You've correctly identified types of index plays that are strong hands where every gambler would choose to stay. In theory they're correct, but look out of place since most players wouldn't take another card with A8, A9, hard 17 or split up a twenty. Generally it's more natural looking to use index plays that draw another card to a weak hand like hit 13/14 vs. 2. I've personally never split a 20 & always wondered if there was a poll on whether people split 10's.

Playing all shoes and buying software are great moves, but you're looking at insurance the wrong way. You take insurance at a true count of 6 for level two counts because that's what the index says to do. Whether you have a bad hand or good hand is irrelevant. You must take insurance with a bad hand, this is by far the most important playing deviation!

As for heat, it will come when you bet over a certain threshold like $500, or show big wins. Players' critiques or dealers rolling their eyes as you try to hit that A7 won't bring any trouble.

**Tarzan** · 07-07-2018, 06:53 PM

There is no deck composition with any number of decks, and to an even greater extreme in SD, to hit hard 17vsA or hit 16vs6. Please describe your concept for any potential index to hit 16vs6 under any circumstances... because there are no circumstances, no deck compositions that will allow for it, no index, so no kidding, I wouldn't hit it either.

**21forme** · 07-07-2018, 08:16 PM

Tarzan - hitting 17vA is BS in Sp21 and index is -4 in HiLo for BJ.

**Frank Galvin** · 07-08-2018, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by 21forme

Tarzan - hitting 17vA is BS in Sp21 and index is -4 in HiLo for BJ.

21FM, this thread was about blackjack index plays. No? Why mention SP21?

**Meistro123** · 07-08-2018, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by 21forme

Tarzan - hitting 17vA is BS in Sp21 and index is -4 in HiLo for BJ.

For the record the S17 index is much lower.

17 is like your step mother. You want to hit it, but you can't.

**21forme** · 07-08-2018, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Frank Galvin

21FM, this thread was about blackjack index plays. No? Why mention SP21?

I wanna be like another forum member

Actually, the way I remember it as a BJ index is I know it's BS in Sp21, and the difference is the 4 because the tens are removed.

**Meistro123** · 07-09-2018, 12:03 AM

There is no deck composition with any number of decks, and to an even greater extreme in SD, to hit hard 17vsA or hit 16vs6.

Removing just four tens from a single deck deck (as well as the A, and the T7 that constitute your hard 17) makes hitting have a higher expectation than staying on hard seventeen against ace.

With that composition hitting returns -.549302 whereas staying returns -.5666318

You have to remove 9 tens before hitting 16 v 6 becomes the right play.

**Tarzan** · 07-24-2018, 02:06 AM

I should have worded that differently, but next time you are at -12 feel free to hit 16vs6?

**refinery** · 07-24-2018, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by Tarzan

I should have worded that differently, but next time you are at -12 feel free to hit 16vs6?

Not that it much matters (with min bets out), but even on a 5/6 game, it's possible to get a dramatic TC at the very end of a shoe where the RC is the TC. This circumstance has led me to make sure I know even extreme indexes. It doesn't have a huge effect, but I just don't like not knowing an index. It's also nice to make unconventional plays at the table here and there.