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Thread: Mechanical Devices

  1. #1


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    Mechanical Devices

    I asked a question in Midwest Players thread about how he kept records while playing. I meantioned a little plastic tally counter I bought because I am interested in counting how many rounds per hour I get when I'm playing.......I bought this tally counter because I see a lot of stats on how many hands per hour a person can be dealt. Or how much per hour an AP can figure to make. I know as a blackjack player I have been dealt to by very fast dealers and also very slow dealers. I wanted to know exactly how many hands I'm getting per hour....that is why I asked Midwest Player how he kept track of his stats, because I figured someone with stats he posted must be keeping track of exactly how many hands per hour he is getting......

    Well naturally, in this forum you can count on some people feeling it necessary to give you their opinion on something that is not an issue and you are not asking for a advice about....

    I post honestly in all the forums, but the problem with me doing that is that some people are so interested in giving advice, even though the advice given is not necessary or wanted or asked for......,for example in another forum I said I got 3 personal loans to go along with my $10,000 cash for my Vegas trip.........well naturally someone felt it necessary to point out that getting loans to gamble with is not smart.......NO SHIT......... I had my reasons for doing that. But my personal loans had nothing to do with the threads purpose........

    I don't know why people do that.....I am an expert in umpiring....but I'm not going to interject my opinion or advice unless someone is asking for it.....

    If I wondered if the tally device was accepted in the casino, I would have asked that question.....

    Everyone in these forums is not a stupid idiot, even if they have only posted a few times.

    I have seen many people use their cell phones at a table, some are told to step back from the table. And some I've seen are allowed to have it out during play. I have witnessed both scenarios.

    So for someone to say a person will get in big trouble if they are using a mechanical device simply is not true. I've seen and taken pictures of casino chips sitting on blackjack tables, and I've seen pictures of actual hand results after a split, or double down. That were taken during live action with dealer and Pitt boss knowing it was being done....

    I'm trying to gain ideas and knowledge from this forum, so I ask questions when I have them......

    I did not want to hyjack Midwest posters thread with this. But when I see this "advice" given from people I just can not understand why people feel it necessary....my mind thinks of this advice like this........say I ask my friend about whether they wear tube socks or crew socks.....and someone overhearing the conversation says "you have to put socks on b4 you are wearing them."



    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

  2. #2


    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by trucker View Post
    I asked a question in Midwest Players thread about how he kept records while playing. I meantioned a little plastic tally counter I bought because I am interested in counting how many rounds per hour I get when I'm playing.......I bought this tally counter because I see a lot of stats on how many hands per hour a person can be dealt. Or how much per hour an AP can figure to make. I know as a blackjack player I have been dealt to by very fast dealers and also very slow dealers. I wanted to know exactly how many hands I'm getting per hour....that is why I asked Midwest Player how he kept track of his stats, because I figured someone with stats he posted must be keeping track of exactly how many hands per hour he is getting......

    Well naturally, in this forum you can count on some people feeling it necessary to give you their opinion on something that is not an issue and you are not asking for a advice about....

    I post honestly in all the forums, but the problem with me doing that is that some people are so interested in giving advice, even though the advice given is not necessary or wanted or asked for......,for example in another forum I said I got 3 personal loans to go along with my $10,000 cash for my Vegas trip.........well naturally someone felt it necessary to point out that getting loans to gamble with is not smart.......NO SHIT......... I had my reasons for doing that. But my personal loans had nothing to do with the threads purpose........

    I don't know why people do that.....I am an expert in umpiring....but I'm not going to interject my opinion or advice unless someone is asking for it.....

    If I wondered if the tally device was accepted in the casino, I would have asked that question.....

    Everyone in these forums is not a stupid idiot, even if they have only posted a few times.

    I have seen many people use their cell phones at a table, some are told to step back from the table. And some I've seen are allowed to have it out during play. I have witnessed both scenarios.

    So for someone to say a person will get in big trouble if they are using a mechanical device simply is not true. I've seen and taken pictures of casino chips sitting on blackjack tables, and I've seen pictures of actual hand results after a split, or double down. That were taken during live action with dealer and Pitt boss knowing it was being done....

    I'm trying to gain ideas and knowledge from this forum, so I ask questions when I have them......

    I did not want to hyjack Midwest posters thread with this. But when I see this "advice" given from people I just can not understand why people feel it necessary....my mind thinks of this advice like this........say I ask my friend about whether they wear tube socks or crew socks.....and someone overhearing the conversation says "you have to put socks on b4 you are wearing them."



    Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
    Goes to show how little you know about the side effects of being an AP. The more an AP plays (full time pros are at the top), the higher their stakez, the number of years They have been playing, the count they use (more complex) all lead them to lives where they have developed a nasty personality. They know they have nothing to learn from this forum (yet religiously they are on it almost every day), but they are in denial, they convince themselves they want to help newbies and intermediates but actually, they wAnt to get their anger, their hostilities and to boast about their experiences.

    You have to post and then watch your thread for the occasional answer to your OP as pages and pages are filled with fights that develop and while they fight for the right to be the bigger bully (think about a couple of lions fighting over the carcass of a dead deer.

    As a newbie, you get impressed by their BJ success but if you read these forums, you can see the devastating side effect of being a full time AP. There is a reason or two why the very best (Don S and Dr. Wong or Norm) no longer play full time or at all. They are the ones who also don't get on every thread and when they do, they address the OP.

    These full timers who are taking their hostilities out on the forum every day serve the purpose of cautioning us from getting into too much BJ. They are the label on a cigarette packet cautioning us.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    These full timers who are taking their hostilities out on the forum every day serve the purpose of cautioning us from getting into too much BJ. They are the label on a cigarette packet cautioning us.
    Could not have said it better (though I think my opinion on the matter is a little bit less strong than yours... then again I haven't been here as long, so that may be a function of less time spent dealing with it).

    That said though, I'm not sure what the downside is on a forum to people providing unsolicited advice. At worst I can ignore it, and at best I might learn something I hadn't even though about asking. So, I for one will take all the unsolicited advice I can get. :-P I don't see why I wouldn't want it to be there for me to pick, choose, and/or ignore information from.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesonDetroit View Post
    Could not have said it better (though I think my opinion on the matter is a little bit less strong than yours... then again I haven't been here as long, so that may be a function of less time spent dealing with it).

    That said though, I'm not sure what the downside is on a forum to people providing unsolicited advice. At worst I can ignore it, and at best I might learn something I hadn't even though about asking. So, I for one will take all the unsolicited advice I can get. :-P I don't see why I wouldn't want it to be there for me to pick, choose, and/or ignore information from.
    You need to be careful as to what you do, or do not accept as meaningful advice. Should you chooses to ugnore the advice regarding mechanical aids, you may well find yourself in jail. Though I'm oretty sure that the device mentioned in thus thread us not a big deal (not a legal opinion), the legal fees you will encounter to extract yourself from that situation, will make it a big deal.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    You need to be careful as to what you do, or do not accept as meaningful advice. Should you chooses to ugnore the advice regarding mechanical aids, you may well find yourself in jail. Though I'm oretty sure that the device mentioned in thus thread us not a big deal (not a legal opinion), the legal fees you will encounter to extract yourself from that situation, will make it a big deal.
    Oh, believe me, I wouldn't be caught dead in a casino with anything that could be misconstrued as an assistive device. That actually is my point; the advice not to bring something like that into a casino is an example of something that I would have been stoked to read, even if I hadn't asked for it. Hence my point to the OP.

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    You need to be careful as to what you do, or do not accept as meaningful advice. Should you chooses to ugnore the advice regarding mechanical aids, you may well find yourself in jail. Though I'm oretty sure that the device mentioned in thus thread us not a big deal (not a legal opinion), the legal fees you will encounter to extract yourself from that situation, will make it a big deal.
    +1

  7. #7


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    Trucker, I'm sorry that you found my unsolicited advice offensive. The intent was only to help you avoid a potentially unpleasant situation. I don't think that you would dispute that the casino would frown upon the use of any device designed to count things at the table. You may or may not get away with it in the short term. The problem is that, in most jurisdictions, the use of any such device is not just against casino policy, it's against the law. The downside of being caught with it outweighs the benefit by a large margin, in my opinion. The same applies to using cell phones.

    You wrote:

    "I bought these little tally counters. They have a little clear band kind of like a watch band but small, so it fits around your finger. I had every intention of using them to count rounds per hour"

    It was your statement of intent which prompted my response. It told me that you were either unaware of the potential consequences or didn't care. I was just trying to point out something that I felt you may not have considered. You also said (above)

    "some people feeling it necessary to give you their opinion on something that is not an issue"

    If you don't think that this is an issue then, I'm sorry, but you're showing your inexperience.

    As for the advice being unsolicted, once again I was just trying to help. If a tourist asked me about how to get to a certain part of town which I knew to be dangerous, I would tell him that even though that was not what he asked. It's simply a nice thing to do.

  8. #8
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    I am not sure what Trucker is "asking". But how APs know the number of rounds per hour is they know how many rounds per shoe they get with certain pen and so many players at the table. The actual number will vary slightly with the count you play through but they may not get that complicated. You aren't worried about a few rounds per hour difference.

    As for all the unsolicited advise. The thread is read by a lot of people. Comments are directed to a broader audience than just the OP. Choosing to comment on something else that is related while not commenting on the topic asked amy indicate two things. First an adequate answer to your question has already been posted but related nuances should be brought up. Second the poster answering doesn't have a good answer to the question but does know valuable information that relates to the concept the question asks more specifically about.

    I wouldn't use any device at the table. It is only illegal if it is used to gain an advantage at the game. Counting rounds won't have an immediate ability to gain advantage but it can be used for to gather data for increasing advantage on later visits. You say the counter is for tracking rounds. What do you think the casino will say the counter was used to count if they decide they don't like you and found you used it?
    Last edited by Three; 06-20-2018 at 09:04 AM.

  9. #9


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    Does it really matter how many hands per hour you are getting? I don't track hands per hour. I'm more interested in how much per hour I'm making. Counting hands per hour is just a distraction from your main count. You have enough to concentrate on without keeping a side count of hands per hour.

    I suggest if you really want to know how many hands per hour you are getting just stand behind a table and don't play and just count the hands played and do this for 20 minutes then multiply by 3 to get hands played in a hour. Do this for a fast dealer, average dealer and slow dealer. Then when you come to a table you can say this is a fast dealer I'm getting 120 hands per hour or this is a slow dealer. I'm getting only 70 hands per hour.

    By the way, I thought Stealth's record keeping was nice but over kill. Again, I basically only keep track of two things which is how much I won or lost and hours played. Dates, location etc can all be added after your trip.
    Last edited by Midwest Player; 06-20-2018 at 02:17 PM.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    Does it really matter how many hands per hour you are getting?
    I consider hph second only to penetration in evaluating EV. Above rules. Way above which count you are using.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    I consider hph second only to penetration in evaluating EV. Above rules.....
    WOW...you will need high hph w/ crappy rules as you wait for an edge...i put rules 2nd for sure...prob b/c i avoid crappy rules...sans other opportunities

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
    WOW...you will need high hph w/ crappy rules as you wait for an edge...i put rules 2nd for sure...prob b/c i avoid crappy rules...sans other opportunities
    Depends exactly which rules you mean. If it's H17 vs S17, or NDAS vs. DAS, I disagree. If it's 6:5, then I agree.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21forme View Post
    I consider hph second only to penetration in evaluating EV. Above rules. Way above which count you are using.
    +1

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