I18 Index Clarification

[Sharpe]

My indices differ from Hi-Lo indices, but some I-18 indices remain the same (or very nearly) at any level of pen. The I-18 indices impacted by pen (as in the index is different at one deck remaining than it is for four decks remaining) are: Insurance, 15vsT, 10vsT, 10vsA, 9vs7, 13vs2, and 13vs3. The four I-18 hands impacted by a difference between S17 and H17 are T,Tvs6, 11vsA, 9vs2, and 12vs6. Be advised that many of these differences are not that far off from one another, for instance 13vs2 being -1 hit at four decks remaining, but more like -2 at less than two decks remaining, 9vs7 is +3 at four decks remaining, but more like +2 with less than two decks remaining.

This is what I needed...

Appreciate ya, Tarzan!

[Sharpe]

Don, you should appreciate my username.... I’d love to chat

[DSchles]

Don, you should appreciate my username.... I’d love to chat

Extra points if your first name is William!

Don

[21forme]

Sharpe is the poster's middle name. his last name is Ratio.

[Gronbog]

Tarzan should probably clarify whether he's referring to indices and true counts calculated using his system or whether they are for HiLo (the usual default).

[DSchles]

Tarzan should probably clarify whether he's referring to indices and true counts calculated using his system or whether they are for HiLo (the usual default).

Yes he should, because I see no reason why this would be true for Hi-Lo. Saying that an index is different for 2-deck than for 6-deck is not the same thing as claiming that, when you get to the fourth deck of 6-deck, the 6-deck index changes to the 2-deck one.

Don

[Sharpe]

Extra points if your first name is William!

Don

Unfortunately, no....

I'm a big fan of his work and feel the sharpe ratio is one of the most important numbers when evaluating an investment, or investment manager. Along with a number of other things as well.

I'd love to learn more about your approach to game evaluation with SCORE... How is it calculated? And if my understanding is correct, you should only play a game with a SCORE of 50 or higher? I understand the higher the SCORE the better the game.

I don't mean to get off topic so feel free to email me if you would prefer to take the conversation off site; if at all....

[email protected]

[Sharpe]

Saying that an index is different for 2-deck than for 6-deck is not the same thing as claiming that, when you get to the fourth deck of 6-deck, the 6-deck index changes to the 2-deck one.

Don

Hold up... let me make sure I understand this properly. If I sit down at a 6-deck game, the index remains the same regardless of how many decks are remaining? Or should I adjust when I get to 4-decks remaining, 2-decks remaining, etc?

I assume the latter is incorrect.

[Tarzan]

"Tarzan should probably clarify whether he's referring to indices and true counts calculated using his system or whether they are for HiLo (the usual default)."

Yes, first words out were that my indices may differ than Hi-Lo indices. I should have clarified that I was thinking in terms of my indices rather than Hi-Lo in any example noted. I would have to look up what the Hi-Lo index is. My index can alter slightly for some hands depending upon no. of decks remaining, in addition to key card situations that I didn't go into. I'm not sure your typical Hi-Lo player is going to want to look at it under a magnifying glass in this manner, but the index can be different at 1.5 decks remaining than it is for 4.5 decks remaining for some hands.

"That’s good to know. I like doubling the 9 vs 7. I’m a doubler..if it’s close to the index, I usually go for it. Now I can get more aggressive with this one."

Close to the index? What about being darn sure you are at or past the index in order to deviate from basic strategy? Playing it risk averse is wiser than playing it short of the index. Let's say you are using Hi-Lo and the index you are going with is +3 to double 9vs7. There is such a thing as being at +4, +5 even (using Hi-Lo), with the proper decision to hit, depending on key card composition (3,4,A) for the hand. You want to be at or preferably past the index to deviate from basic strategy.

Allow me to put this in terms of practical application of how I am looking at the hand. Let's say I am playing a DD game next to EnriqueVazquezFromEastNogales the Hi-Lo player. There's one deck remaining, TC+6, and we both have 9vs7. Enrique sees +6 and doubles, I see 4-10-0-5r-2r, which is right on the line in an even distribution within groupings. The question from here is (3,4) removed. If I've seen (5) about cleaned out, have seen (2) removed, only two (6) remain which are side counted, but have seen darn few (3,4) removed, I hit. Although I don't have an exact count on (3,4) removed, particularly since I am thinking more in terms of (2,3) to (4,5) ratio within the grouping for betting purposes, I am going to at least have some clues, such as seeing lots of (2,5) removed but darn few (3,4). While I'm sitting there at the table, I might have "4-10-0" dancing around in my head, but I'm also thinking "Holy fuck that's a lot of (5)'s" should it occur. At an even distribution within the grouping, I am just on the side of hitting rather than doubling. Seeing (2,5) removed over and above (3,4) pushes me farther in the direction to hit rather than double. The optimal decision in this deck composition is to hit.

Next shuffle there we are, Enrique and I. One deck remaining, Hi-Lo TC+2 and we have the same thing. We both have 9vs7, Enrique hits, I double because I've seen (3,4) removed, pretty much all of them and haven't seen nearly as many (2,5) removed. Enrique sees +2, but I see 6-0-4-4r-4r with (3,4) removed well beyond the mean. In an even distribution within groupings, I am just over the edge to double, and the significant number of (3,4) removed beyond the mean at an even distribution push it farther into the direction to double. Enrique then tells all his friends that he saw some asshole that hit 9vs7 at +6 but doubled 9vs7 at +2 in the very next shuffle the other day...

I could demonstrate how this works on a chart and get more specific, but this should be enough to give you an idea.

[DSchles]

Hold up... let me make sure I understand this properly. If I sit down at a 6-deck game, the index remains the same regardless of how many decks are remaining?

For Hi-Lo, yes.

Or should I adjust when I get to 4-decks remaining, 2-decks remaining, etc?

I assume the latter is incorrect.

No. Yes, it's incorrect.

Don

[Dbs6582]

"Tarzan should probably clarify whether he's referring to indices and true counts calculated using his system or whether they are for HiLo (the usual default)."

Yes, first words out were that my indices may differ than Hi-Lo indices. I should have clarified that I was thinking in terms of my indices rather than Hi-Lo in any example noted. I would have to look up what the Hi-Lo index is. My index can alter slightly for some hands depending upon no. of decks remaining, in addition to key card situations that I didn't go into. I'm not sure your typical Hi-Lo player is going to want to look at it under a magnifying glass in this manner, but the index can be different at 1.5 decks remaining than it is for 4.5 decks remaining for some hands.

"That’s good to know. I like doubling the 9 vs 7. I’m a doubler..if it’s close to the index, I usually go for it. Now I can get more aggressive with this one."

Close to the index? What about being darn sure you are at or past the index in order to deviate from basic strategy? Playing it risk averse is wiser than playing it short of the index. Let's say you are using Hi-Lo and the index you are going with is +3 to double 9vs7. There is such a thing as being at +4, +5 even (using Hi-Lo), with the proper decision to hit, depending on key card composition (3,4,A) for the hand. You want to be at or preferably past the index to deviate from basic strategy.

Allow me to put this in terms of practical application of how I am looking at the hand. Let's say I am playing a DD game next to EnriqueVazquezFromEastNogales the Hi-Lo player. There's one deck remaining, TC+6, and we both have 9vs7. Enrique sees +6 and doubles, I see 4-10-0-5r-2r, which is right on the line in an even distribution within groupings. The question from here is (3,4) removed. If I've seen (5) about cleaned out, have seen (2) removed, only two (6) remain which are side counted, but have seen darn few (3,4) removed, I hit. Although I don't have an exact count on (3,4) removed, particularly since I am thinking more in terms of (2,3) to (4,5) ratio within the grouping for betting purposes, I am going to at least have some clues, such as seeing lots of (2,5) removed but darn few (3,4). While I'm sitting there at the table, I might have "4-10-0" dancing around in my head, but I'm also thinking "Holy fuck that's a lot of (5)'s" should it occur. At an even distribution within the grouping, I am just on the side of hitting rather than doubling. Seeing (2,5) removed over and above (3,4) pushes me farther in the direction to hit rather than double. The optimal decision in this deck composition is to hit.

Next shuffle there we are, Enrique and I. One deck remaining, Hi-Lo TC+2 and we have the same thing. We both have 9vs7, Enrique hits, I double because I've seen (3,4) removed, pretty much all of them and haven't seen nearly as many (2,5) removed. Enrique sees +2, but I see 6-0-4-4r-4r with (3,4) removed well beyond the mean. In an even distribution within groupings, I am just over the edge to double, and the significant number of (3,4) removed push it farther into the direction to double. Enrique then tells all his friends that he saw some asshole that hit 9vs7 at +6 but doubled 9vs7 at +2 in the very next shuffle the other day...

I could demonstrate how this works on a chart and get more specific, but this should be enough to give you an idea.

Thanks Tarzan! I had to read your post twice to get what you mean, but I finally get it. I’ll probably read it at least 2 more times but I understand why the removal of these cards are important. My count is Hilo but I also keep a lot of side counts and I’m usually pretty aware of what cards I’ve seen. I obviously only do this for DD and single, which is almost all I play.

Btw, one of the reasons I’ll double with a lower index number is when the pit critter is watching me. I’ve found doubling on 9 vs 7 and 10 vs 10 are good cheap cover. Most don’t know this is a good play at the correct index number, at least not the people in my area. I’m sure in Vegas and other places they know the game a lot better than what I’m dealing with around here.

Also, I get why it makes sense to be at the index number or above it. This is my preferred method of play but if it’s the weekend and I get the table to egg me on with what they think is a stupid double, I’ll go for it, as long as I’m close to the index number. I don’t do this often, but I have found myself doing this a little bit more lately. I probably need to not do this as often. Another reason I do it is because I know it makes me look more like a gambler and it’s allowed me to spread bigger when the time comes without drawing attention.

Thanks again! Your detailed description was very helpful!

[BoSox]

I'm not sure your typical Hi-Lo player is going to want to look at it under a magnifying glass in this manner, but the index can be different at 1.5 decks remaining than it is for 4.5 decks remaining for some hands.

Originally Posted by Sharpe
Hold up... let me make sure I understand this properly. If I sit down at a 6-deck game, the index remains the same regardless of how many decks are remaining?

For Hi-Lo, yes.

Originally Posted by Sharpe
Or should I adjust when I get to 4-decks remaining, 2-decks remaining, etc?

I assume the latter is incorrect.
No. Yes, it's incorrect.

Don

We should probably get EnriqueVazquezFromEastNogales the Hi-Lo player to clear this all up.

[Dbs6582]

We should probably get EnriqueVazquezFromEastNogales the Hi-Lo player to clear this all up.

I’m missing the joke about this guy? Is from an earlier thread? Can you fill me in? Thanks!