Tape Reviews

[Freightman]

There is a dealer who always gives me 95% pen. He gets handsome tips. Unfortunately he is the relief dealer only, and on a rotation around all the tables at the same time. Perhaps it is better that I don't play with him too often as that sweet hook-up might abruptly vanish.

Be careful of being linked to collusion. Could give you a lot of grief. There Is a lie end speed count player in our area, who had shit fir brains, and more money than he knows what to do with. Numb nuts is constantly throwing nickels across the table, likely $50/hour.

In Vegas, where numb nuts has a condo, he was requested to meet in the back room, where the subject of collusion was broached. His natural stupidity shone through, as he quite ably demonstrated his lack of Conceptual lucidity.

You may nit be so lucky.

[Freightman]

What is a "lie end speed count player"?

Sorry - low end ace 5 count.

[Three]

Can someone confirm that tipping dealers for deeper pen is a form of collusion?

It is just a coincidence that the dealers get more tips when the cut deeper for me and do other things that help make winning more likely. There is no collusion. Dealers are trying to figure out what will get you to tip. If they are smart they figure it out and make a lot of tips. If not they don't make many tips. That goes for all players at the table not just APs.

[Freightman]

It is just a coincidence that the dealers get more tips when the cut deeper for me and do other things that help make winning more likely. There is no collusion. Dealers are trying to figure out what will get you to tip. If they are smart they figure it out and make a lot of tips. If not they don't make many tips. That goes for all players at the table not just APs.

In this case, where the player is unknown, his modus operandi is so off beat, that it draws attention. Simply put, he's an idiot. Plays a losing game tipping an additional $50/hour.

[Red Green]

Can someone confirm that tipping dealers for deeper pen is a form of collusion?

With the caveat that I practice in Canada, not the USA and with the further caveat that this is not offered or intended as legal advice, I would make the following general comments:

1. “Collusion” is typically used to describe market (price) manipulation, not criminal activity;
2. When two or more people plan to carry an unlawful activity, that is conspiracy. If you don’t plan or discuss it, then generally no conspiracy.
3. Tipping is customary in casinos;
4. A dealer who on their own can figure out that a player will tend to tip more when certain actions are taken acts alone. IF the jurisdiction has rules about pen (I don’t know if that exists in any jurisdiction) and a dealer deviated to garner tips, I would say the dealer could be liable under the gaming statute or regulation or under the terms of an employment contract if that behaviour was prohibited;
5. Tipping — even if it is intended to silently persuade (or train) a dealer — cannot amount to “deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means” to bring the activity into fraud. It is a custom of the game and traditionally correlates to better than average service.
6. Just reading “American Roulette”: the initial play at the mini baccarat that is described between Marcus, then a dealer, and his prospective teammates was theft. They planned and executed to rig the game and did so. That’s not anywhere close to strategic tipping;
7. Ian Anderson discusses ‘training’ dealers for better pen. Whether under the guise of ‘luck’ or in exchange for better tips, my view is that so long as the game permits variance in penetration, so long as the dealer stays within that tolerance, there is no foul. If they breach the limits, then we’re in a point #4 scenario and the main liability is on the dealer.
8. An overzealous prosecutor can lay an improper charge and is generally immune.
9. Proper casino comportment is often referred to in these threads. Don’t do anything stupid that will get your dealer fired or you tossed and barred. Bear in mind that casinos can bar you for virtually any perceived slight.



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[SplitFaceDisaster]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. The examples that were given especially helped shed light on this, so those were much appreciated.

[Dbs6582]

With the caveat that I practice in Canada, not the USA and with the further caveat that this is not offered or intended as legal advice, I would make the following general comments:

1. “Collusion” is typically used to describe market (price) manipulation, not criminal activity;
2. When two or more people plan to carry an unlawful activity, that is conspiracy. If you don’t plan or discuss it, then generally no conspiracy.
3. Tipping is customary in casinos;
4. A dealer who on their own can figure out that a player will tend to tip more when certain actions are taken acts alone. IF the jurisdiction has rules about pen (I don’t know if that exists in any jurisdiction) and a dealer deviated to garner tips, I would say the dealer could be liable under the gaming statute or regulation or under the terms of an employment contract if that behaviour was prohibited;
5. Tipping — even if it is intended to silently persuade (or train) a dealer — cannot amount to “deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means” to bring the activity into fraud. It is a custom of the game and traditionally correlates to better than average service.
6. Just reading “American Roulette”: the initial play at the mini baccarat that is described between Marcus, then a dealer, and his prospective teammates was theft. They planned and executed to rig the game and did so. That’s not anywhere close to strategic tipping;
7. Ian Anderson discusses ‘training’ dealers for better pen. Whether under the guise of ‘luck’ or in exchange for better tips, my view is that so long as the game permits variance in penetration, so long as the dealer stays within that tolerance, there is no foul. If they breach the limits, then we’re in a point #4 scenario and the main liability is on the dealer.
8. An overzealous prosecutor can lay an improper charge and is generally immune.
9. Proper casino comportment is often referred to in these threads. Don’t do anything stupid that will get your dealer fired or you tossed and barred. Bear in mind that casinos can bar you for virtually any perceived slight.



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Excellent post! While I’m not a lawyer, I have several friends that are lawyers. Common sense also told me that much of what people here think is collusion or illegal is not. It makes no sense that tipping or asking a dealer to do certain things within the boundaries of the game could be seen as collusion.

I actually had the reverse situation happen recently. A new dealer at my local hangout was giving such goood pen in DD she almost ran out of cards a couple times. It was a busy night so the pit critter didn’t see what she was doing. Since I didn’t want her to get in trouble (and possibly get written up) and also because I wanted to keep a good thing going, I told her she should move the cut card up. I told her I didn’t want her to run out of cards. She took my advice and reduced pen. I wonder if Freightman would think this is collusion?

[Dbs6582]

I guess what made me doubt my stance is that I have verbally asked the dealer if he could "give us a nice long game", and once he did I would throw him a nickel. Again, I have seen (mostly new dealers) cut off only 0.5 decks or less in a shoe game. I fact, I have seen this in many stores. I don't understand why people say excellent penetration is virtually nonexistent these days.

I agree. You’ve got to look but I’ve found quite a few that give good pen on DD, and some of these are S17. The other day, I was playing with a dealer who was cutting off about 0.5 deck and she had to use the restroom so the pit lady took over. It was the first time I’ve seen this pit lady deal. She delt about 3 DD games while waiting for the regular dealer to return and gave such good pen she almost ran out of cards. I was thinking I hope their regular dealers use the bathroom more often.

[ZeeBabar]

Excellent post! While I’m not a lawyer, I have several friends that are lawyers. Common sense also told me that much of what people here think is collusion or illegal is not. It makes no sense that tipping or asking a dealer to do certain things within the boundaries of the game could be seen as collusion.

I actually had the reverse situation happen recently. A new dealer at my local hangout was giving such goood pen in DD she almost ran out of cards a couple times. It was a busy night so the pit critter didn’t see what she was doing. Since I didn’t want her to get in trouble (and possibly get written up) and also because I wanted to keep a good thing going, I told her she should move the cut card up. I told her I didn’t want her to run out of cards. She took my advice and reduced pen. I wonder if Freightman would think this is collusion?

May or may not be collusion but its a dumb thing for an AP to suggest reduced pen.

[Dog Hand]

Folks,

The above discussion about "tipping for pen" made me wonder how you'd react if the dealer was actually cheating to help you, in the hope (or expectation?) of receiving tips from you.

Examples:

Are you cheating if:

1. The dealer frequently flashes her hole card.

2. In a face-up game the dealer frequently misdeals on rounds where you're dealt a crappy hand versus her strong upcard.

3. A somewhat dated example from the time "before peekers": when the dealer has an Ace upcard, she quickly checks her hole card and then asks for insurance wagers only when she actually has a BJ.

Now how would your responses change if I append the phrase "but only on rounds where you have a bet out for her" to each example?

->Open Spoiler<-

Personally, without the "tip" I'd play 1 and 2, but not 3. With the "tip" I wouldn't play any of these situations.

Just some food for thought!

Dog Hand

[Bubbles]

Folks,

The above discussion about "tipping for pen" made me wonder how you'd react if the dealer was actually cheating to help you, in the hope (or expectation?) of receiving tips from you.

Examples:

Are you cheating if:

1. The dealer frequently flashes her hole card.

2. In a face-up game the dealer frequently misdeals on rounds where you're dealt a crappy hand versus her strong upcard.

3. A somewhat dated example from the time "before peekers": when the dealer has an Ace upcard, she quickly checks her hole card and then asks for insurance wagers only when she actually has a BJ.

Now how would your responses change if I append the phrase "but only on rounds where you have a bet out for her" to each example?

->Open Spoiler<-

Personally, without the "tip" I'd play 1 and 2, but not 3. With the "tip" I wouldn't play any of these situations.

Just some food for thought!

Dog Hand

I tip for pen. It doesn't have an affect on the outcome of the game. If anyone gives me insane pen, I tell them not to do anything that will get them in trouble.

I'll play a HC game, but if I think they're aware that they're flashing, like only flashing when there's a tip, I run. I tend to not tip at HC games just because I don't want collusion to come up.

Frequent misdeals, especially those that cause the floor to come over, slow the game down and draw attention to your table. No thanks. I don't want anything to do with that.

The last one that peeks.. Holy hell. Run far away. No thanks.

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[RCJH]

DH,

I have played #1.

I would play #2.

I have also played thought small, infrequent misplays in my favor.

To avoid the ethical conflict, in places where I am unknown I'll tip small at the beginning of a shoe, and/or on color up. I don't tip per hand, or when I raise my bet. (First hand after buy in when the pit is recording your bet is a GREAT time to tip...)

I did have a situation where I am known. Locally, I tip more. About 90% of my tips YTD have been within 150 miles of my house. I had a dealer grossly overpay me, and he went as far as to not splay the chips for the camera. I pointed out the overpay, and he whispered "now don't do that...." I finished the shoe, DID NOT TIP, and left. I also waited over 8 months to go back to that casino.

[21forme]

Doghand,

Good post!

If the dealer is expecting/soliciting tips by purposely doing these things, I'd find another table. A purposeful flash of a HC is going to be obvious to more than just you.