Basic Strategy vs Index

[Dbs6582]

Better to double than split in any high true count. But only 44 v 6, 44 v 5 is always a split.

Can you expand on this? Why is there a difference between 5 and 6? I haven’t read where you should double for either.

When you say high, how high? Would your double 4,4 vs 6 at a TC 7?

[Meistro123]

Would your double 4,4 vs 6 at a TC 7

yes

[DSchles]

Why hasn't anyone discussed in the thread about 44 vs. 5 and 6, whether you're talking about a DAS game or NDAS? It's impossible to discuss this without stipulating one or the other. You ALWAYS split, once you've attained the proper index, if the game is DAS. It's basic strategy. If not, then you don't split and treat the hand as hard 8, for which you have doubling indices that kick in.

Don

[Dbs6582]

Why hasn't anyone discussed in the thread about 44 vs. 5 and 6, whether you're talking about a DAS game or NDAS? It's impossible to discuss this without stipulating one or the other. You ALWAYS split, once you've attained the proper index, if the game is DAS. It's basic strategy. If not, then you don't split and treat the hand as hard 8, for which you have doubling indices that kick in.

Don

Don, the game is DAS. I’ve never seen anything else except on single deck, which is usually 6:5. I guess I’ve always assumed when this isn’t discussed, everybody assumes it’s DAS.

So you’re saying you always split 4,4 vs 5 or 6 with DAS no matter how high the count is? I’ve had some pretty high counts for this play, like in the +7 to +11 range and still split but felt like I should have doubled.

[Three]

At least for Hiopt2 there are splitting indices for DAS 4,4v 5 or 6. Perhaps the double tag value for the 4 and 5 relative to the other cards in the low group are the reason if Hilo doesn't have one.

[21forme]

whether you're talking about a DAS game or NDAS

Good point, Don. Just about all CET's DD games are NDAS.

[hypercube]

we are talking about DAS, and like don said you always split 44v5,6 no matter how high the count, because splitting has more opportunity of getting more $$ on the table than just doubling.. for example, split, resplit, catch an ace for soft 15 or a 7 for hard 11,double down and so on.

[Dbs6582]

we are talking about DAS, and like don said you always split 44v5,6 no matter how high the count, because splitting has more opportunity of getting more $$ on the table than just doubling.. for example, split, resplit, catch an ace for soft 15 or a 7 for hard 11,double down and so on.

Makes sense. I guess I see so many people doubling the 4,4 vs 5 and 6, I figure there must be some count where it makes sense. The index number is so high it probably doesn’t ever occur. Thanks!

[Meistro123]

we are talking about DAS, and like don said you always split 44v5,6 no matter how high the count,

I disagree, even in a DAS game it is better to double 44 v 6 in high counts than it is to split it.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

When comparing options ...

Assuming a DAS game ... You split BECAUSE your are further
above the Index needed for Splitting than you are for doubling.

Also in terms of Risk Aversion the double is riskier as the split
may result in a net push, and you may be able to catch a 6 or
a 7 for a fine double.

In a NDAS game the double is better at a very positive count
where basic strategy forbids the split.

[Dbs6582]

When comparing options ...

Assuming a DAS game ... You split BECAUSE your are further
above the Index needed for Splitting than you are for doubling.

Also in terms of Risk Aversion the double is riskier as the split
may result in a net push, and you may be able to catch a 6 or
a 7 for a fine double.

In a NDAS game the double is better at a very positive count
where basic strategy forbids the split.

Good explanation Flash! Thanks! While I follow the strategy and index numbers taught in all the bj books, it still helps to understand the thinking behind it. I get that 10 million hands have been played on some simulator and this has been shown to be the best play to maximize EV, but it still helps to understand the logic behind our decisions. Thanks again!

[Meistro123]

When comparing options ...

Assuming a DAS game ... You split BECAUSE your are further
above the Index needed for Splitting than you are for doubling.

Also in terms of Risk Aversion the double is riskier as the split
may result in a net push, and you may be able to catch a 6 or
a 7 for a fine double.

In a NDAS game the double is better at a very positive count
where basic strategy forbids the split.

OTOH a split could lead to a three or four unit loss, and the single most likely result from splitting is going to be a total of fourteen. Higher counts mean the deck has a higher concentration of tens and aces, which are the cards you are looking for when you double, but are not what you want when you split.

[DSchles]

OTOH a split could lead to a three or four unit loss, and the single most likely result from splitting is going to be a total of fourteen. Higher counts mean the deck has a higher concentration of tens and aces, which are the cards you are looking for when you double, but are not what you want when you split.

This is not the type of play that you can reason out like this. Both you and Flash are entitled to express any opinions you like, but there is only one thing that matters, and that is what the math tells us. I am quite sure that for true counts about as high as I've ever seen them in a shoe game, splitting will always be superior to doubling. If you have a count in mind where that ceases to be true, please provide the e.v.s, because while your opinion is always respected, it means very little in this type of discussion.

Go here: https://www.card-counting.com/cvcxonlineviewer3.htm Extrapolate the red line for any equivalent true counts you like, until you can't go any farther (+14), and tell me when you think doubling 8 vs. 5 will be superior to splitting 4,4, vs. 5.

Oh.

Don