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Thread: ZenMaster_Flash: The Man, The Myth, The Legend.

  1. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    No offense taken, you keep believing that stuff.
    Stealth is a powerful resource, although it is possible to miss his sarcasm
    a la the quote above. In spite of spiderman's assertion, I have NEVER been
    86'd when playing as a mini-team.

    The arachnid-person does NOT know what he is talking about if he cannot
    see the multi-level cover.


  2. #80


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    The arachnid-person does NOT know what he is talking about if he cannot
    see the multi-level cover.
    ZMF, your avatar of Felix the cat fits you well.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2YJduDyFA4

  3. #81


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    Stealth is a powerful resource, although it is possible to miss his sarcasm
    a la the quote above. In spite of spiderman's assertion, I have NEVER been
    86'd when playing as a mini-team.

    The arachnid-person does NOT know what he is talking about if he cannot
    see the multi-level cover.
    I guess my question is why? And that is not a question just about this particular claim. Throughout your existence on this forum, you have been a strong proponent of what you call (post #33 this thread) a "complex" approach. Multi-level counts with side counts, large number of play deviation, and now a 3 player team employing different counts, with "coded" communications.

    And what has all this complexity gotten you? An average of 30k a year in profits for the last 20 years. No offense to you, but most of us professional players (I am in my 15th year) average several times that amount annually employing the complete opposite approach, simplicity.

    I think your entire approach is "counter counter-productive" if your goal is to maximize profits, which is my goal. Perhaps your goal is different? Maybe to convince people how special you are (myth/legend)?

    A couple examples I would point to just from this discussion / thread: Again, going back to post #33, you talk about one of the players works at "card eating". No offense, but if I am in a situation where it is beneficial to eat cards to minimize losses, I am not even playing. I am off to my next +EV situation, rather than minimizing losses during -EV situations. Second example is 'cover', which you just mentioned in defense of this approach. Cover is trying to trick pit/surveillance in an effort to hide what you are doing to gain some longevity. In this day and age, cover is less and less effective. The best cover is short sessions, which is to say, don't even show enough information.

    The host of this forum, Norm has said things like "there is more than one way to skin a cat" and this is very true. So I am not against, you playing the way you like and you find works for you. I do however, have a continuing problem with the way you seem to be misleading players and members that this "complex approach" is necessary to have success, when so many of us, have enjoyed more success by numbers, using an approach just about opposite of what you constantly promote, simplicity.

    There is a poster on this site, really smart guy, you may be familiar with, Three. In post #46 in this thread, he posted the best information I have ever seen him post, "Simple systems get the money. They have strengths and weaknesses just like every other system" I would pay particular interest to those first 5 words.

  4. #82


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    Quote Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
    I guess my question is why? And that is not a question just about this particular claim. Throughout your existence on this forum, you have been a strong proponent of what you call (post #33 this thread) a "complex" approach. Multi-level counts with side counts, large number of play deviation, and now a 3 player team employing different counts, with "coded" communications.

    And what has all this complexity gotten you? An average of 30k a year in profits for the last 20 years. No offense to you, but most of us professional players (I am in my 15th year) average several times that amount annually employing the complete opposite approach, simplicity.

    I think your entire approach is "counter counter-productive" if your goal is to maximize profits, which is my goal. Perhaps your goal is different? Maybe to convince people how special you are (myth/legend)?

    A couple examples I would point to just from this discussion / thread: Again, going back to post #33, you talk about one of the players works at "card eating". No offense, but if I am in a situation where it is beneficial to eat cards to minimize losses, I am not even playing. I am off to my next +EV situation, rather than minimizing losses during -EV situations. Second example is 'cover', which you just mentioned in defense of this approach. Cover is trying to trick pit/surveillance in an effort to hide what you are doing to gain some longevity. In this day and age, cover is less and less effective. The best cover is short sessions, which is to say, don't even show enough information.

    The host of this forum, Norm has said things like "there is more than one way to skin a cat" and this is very true. So I am not against, you playing the way you like and you find works for you. I do however, have a continuing problem with the way you seem to be misleading players and members that this "complex approach" is necessary to have success, when so many of us, have enjoyed more success by numbers, using an approach just about opposite of what you constantly promote, simplicity.

    There is a poster on this site, really smart guy, you may be familiar with, Three. In post #46 in this thread, he posted the best information I have ever seen him post, "Simple systems get the money. They have strengths and weaknesses just like every other system" I would pay particular interest to those first 5 words.
    Spidy, dont forget - you're in a market where quality is somewhat suspect, but quantity abounds, therefore, you have the luxury of finding a new game with a hop skip and jump. I'll give flash the benefit regarding 30k per year as reduced revenue fi the past few years due to health concerns. As far as a hi opt ass pounding, he is what he is.

    I do like a certain amount if complexity - I recognize what it gives me, especially with my play all approach. I also recognize the ability of getting the money with simpler 1 level systems. At the end if the day, would you not agree that overall judgement would be the biggst factor of all.

  5. #83


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    I do like a certain amount if complexity - I recognize what it gives me, especially with my play all approach. I also recognize the ability of getting the money with simpler 1 level systems. At the end if the day, would you not agree that overall judgement would be the biggst factor of all.
    Sounds reasonable enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    especially with my play all approach.

    This however, just sounds dreadful to me.

  6. #84


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    I do like a certain amount if complexity - I recognize what it gives me, especially with my play all approach. I also recognize the ability of getting the money with simpler 1 level systems. At the end if the day, would you not agree that overall judgement would be the biggst factor of all.
    Everyone gets caught eventually anyway as something gives them up. In ZMF example it was probably something like they had the pit boss talking to himself for 90 minutes totally bewildered thinking I know something is wrong. Then it hits him all at once there are three guys sitting at one table all wearing the same color suspenders. More than likely for extra protection while carrying heavy money belts.

  7. #85


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    Not wanting to begin a thread on this, what was Zengrifter’s motive to promote CSM as sequenceable? What did he stand to gain?

  8. #86


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    Quote Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
    And what has all this complexity gotten you? An average of 30k a year in profits for the last 20 years. No offense to you, but most of us professional players (I am in my 15th year) average several times that amount annually employing the complete opposite approach, simplicity.
    I can’t speak for Flash but have you ever considered that he has purposely understated his earnings to not encourage people to become an AP. This is what I do when the people ask me what I make from playing bj. I usually way understate my earnings. Why? Because the last thing I want is more counters playing at my local stores. Casinos will only tolerate so much loss before they will change their game or back off more people. It’s in our interest to not encourage more to people to pick up this game. That’s why even if Joe724 was accurate in saying he made $400,000 in his first year, I’d have never done that. What good did this do? All it did is encourage a lot of young kids (and adults) who think this game is a road to quick riches start playing it. What do you think the MIT and BJA crowd have done claiming to have made millions playing Bj? This is probably why I’ve seen more young counters lately floating through my local hangouts.

    I know Freightman also likes to brag about how much he makes playing bj, once having a standoff with me saying his is bigger than mine. I agreed with him and moved on. I really don’t care how much anybody on this site or any of my friends think I make from bj. This doesn’t define me.

    I like Don’s approach. He’s made what he’s made from blackjack and it’s nobodies business.

  9. #87


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Dbs6582 View Post
    I can’t speak for Flash but have you ever considered that he has purposely understated his earnings to not encourage people to become an AP. This is what I do when the people ask me what I make from playing bj. I usually way understate my earnings. Why? Because the last thing I want is more counters playing at my local stores. Casinos will only tolerate so much loss before they will change their game or back off more people. It’s in our interest to not encourage more to people to pick up this game. That’s why even if Joe724 was accurate in saying he made $400,000 in his first year, I’d have never done that. What good did this do? All it did is encourage a lot of young kids (and adults) who think this game is a road to quick riches start playing it. What do you think the MIT and BJA crowd have done claiming to have made millions playing Bj? This is probably why I’ve seen more young counters lately floating through my local hangouts.

    I know Freightman also likes to brag about how much he makes playing bj, once having a standoff with me saying his is bigger than mine. I agreed with him and moved on. I really don’t care how much anybody on this site or any of my friends think I make from bj. This doesn’t define me.

    I like Don’s approach. He’s made what he’s made from blackjack and it’s nobodies business.
    It's better to state your EV per hour rather than what you take in a given time if pressed on the matter imo. But really it's no one's business apart from your own.

    That said, what do we gain, more specifically, what does ZMF gain, from teaching a "legion of acolytes" about our art? How is that conducive for healthy conditions for those who aren't retired? I get wanting to give back and teach a new generation about APing, but at the end of the day the more successful APs there are around the worse game conditions will get and the faster the burn-out will occur. Wouldn't it be better to just mentor a select few to a very high standard rather than any Tom, Dick and Harry who shows a slight degree of competence?

  10. #88


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    DBS6582, your conclusions are wrong. Telling someone you made $$$$ off BJ does not create successful card counters, it creates ploppies. Thousands of young people see how much a pro basketball or pro baseball or pro entertains make. It only encourages interest in their sports but very few can get to be successful professionals.

    If you don't encourage more people to play BJ, those tables would disappear and be replaced by carnival games. To be a successful card counter over a long period is simply not possible for most people.

    Some of us have had a bit of success now or for the past 2-4 years but the conclusion that we are AP's is just our ego. That losing streak might be just around the corner. Maybe it's just variance.

  11. #89


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    DBS6582, your conclusions are wrong. Telling someone you made $$$$ off BJ does not create successful card counters, it creates ploppies. Thousands of young people see how much a pro basketball or pro baseball or pro entertains make. It only encourages interest in their sports but very few can get to be successful professionals.

    If you don't encourage more people to play BJ, those tables would disappear and be replaced by carnival games. To be a successful card counter over a long period is simply not possible for most people.

    Some of us have had a bit of success now or for the past 2-4 years but the conclusion that we are AP's is just our ego. That losing streak might be just around the corner. Maybe it's just variance.
    And those ploppies keep the games around. But yeah you're right, the most successful APs of all time have never understated the importance of "luck" in their careers. It's just the brutal reality that no matter how skilled you are that Mother Variance might disfavour you and you will get slapped down hard and kicked out of the game.

    Also, some carny games can present some very profitable opportunities if you know what to look for.

  12. #90


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    Quote Originally Posted by spiderman View Post

    This however, just sounds dreadful to me.
    It is what it is. Can't elaborate more.

  13. #91


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    The Dipshit said
    "I know Freightman also likes to brag about how much he makes playing bj, once having a standoff with me saying his is bigger than mine. I agreed with him and moved on. I really don’t care how much anybody on this site or any of my friends think I make from bj. This doesn’t define me."

    You've vehemently alleged an infatuation with you, yet, it is you who prominently mentions me in virtually every post that you make. Further, you complain that I do not answer your never ending adjusted versions of your supposed truth.

    The fact of the matter is that you're not worthy of a meaningful response, since you will twist it into some other version if your distorted truth. Accordingly, a friendly fuck you, will simply have to suffice.

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