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Thread: Mohegan Sun Ct goes 6:5.

  1. #27


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    I will answer you one more time. Your reputation for posting absolutely and totally false stuff is well established. You reputation for being a troll is even more well established. Any time spent correcting you with what everyone else already knows is a complete waste of time because you are either trolling or can't learn and everyone else already knows the stuff so there would be no gain to anyone. To put in in AP terms reading or answering is totally -EV with no hope of any +EV. It is the forum equivalent of even money BJ game that doesn't allow doubling or splitting and takes all the tens out of the deck so only face cards remain. If you think the people that still read your posts take anything you post seriously you have just revealed another thing you are clueless about, credibility.

    By the way I put up the quote of what I saw because I didn't need to read your post to know the Joe Pesci scene described it perfectly. The Emails I have received from posters I know about the post confirm it was absolutely wrong.

    Name one “false stuff” I’ve posted. Having a different opinion on a topic is not posting “false stuff” and it is not being a troll, unless you can’t handle a different viewpoint, which is apparently the case around here.

    I think people are upset that I have haven’t drank the cool-aide when it comes to believing casinos could make more money by moving the cut card further back. I know this is an important core belief for many APs. I haven’t quite figured out why since there's nothing we can do about it and it doesn’t impact what we do.

    Btw, I must have become pretty important if you're receiving emails about my posts. So let me get this straight. No one reads my posts but they are emailing you about them. Is this what you’re saying? I read your post a couple times and had a hard time deciphering it.

  2. #28
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    In general, casinos offer only H17 shoe games and DD games unless
    they are willing to play for sizable stakes, and place themselves in the
    fishbowl of Surveillance.

    Brilliant marketing strategy, that I believe began with "The Evil Empire"
    as we referred to the Harrahs empire.

    I remember when this transition happened in the early 1980's. Young
    people nowadays have no idea that(until then) the rules and pen' were
    universal whether you were betting $5 or $5,000.

  3. #29
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    In response to this thread, in recent years I have found several casinos
    in the MidWest and in the East, who deal 6 deckers with the very best
    rules while directing their dealers to cut off ¼ deck! Yes, you read that
    correctly. A dozen cards or so AND the best rules for a House Edge as low
    as 0.26%. I quit playing at such venues because they depend on the vigilance
    of their Surveillance to '86 players who are skillful or have sizable cumulative
    winnings.

    It is clear, as taught by the casino consultant, Bill Zender, that the casinos will
    earn more money by dealing very deeply.

  4. #30


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post

    It is clear, as taught by the casino consultant, Bill Zender, that the casinos will
    earn more money by dealing very deeply.
    Okay, so now that we’ve established Zender is the expert on this matter, does that mean every casino can earn more money by dealing deeper, no matter where they are currently dealing? Is there a mathematical formula that says exactly how deep a casino needs to deal to maximize earnings?

    I’m just trying to follow this logic to its logically conclusion. If deeper is always better, than that means dealing a deck or shoe all the way to the last card should be the way a casino can earn the maximum amount of money. If that’s true, why haven’t casinos figured this out? Why aren’t they dealing to the last card?

    Is that what Zender thinks? Casinos should deal every game (DD and shoe) to the last card. If he doesn’t, then what does he say is the optimum pen for maximum earnings? Is there any science or math to this? Or it just something people believe because some consultant said it?

    What does Zender think about how fast a dealer should deal? How about how many tables to open? Should there always be some dealers standing behind empty tables? That’s what I see at almost all the casinos I go to, except sometimes when they are very busy.

    Does Zender explain how dealing deeper generates more demand? This is the concept I’m struggling to understand.

    Also, does this debunk all of Gosjean’s beliefs that a casinos shouldn’t try to take people’s money too quickly? He believes taking people’s money too quickly hurts customer retention. How does this play into the whole cut card debate?

    This topic is a little more complicated than most think. There are a lot of variables at play. The answer is outside of what math can tell us, and it’s probably different for different casinos. Zender says one thing, but I’m sure there are a lot of other casino consultants saying something else. There’s a reason different casinos operate differently when it comes to the cut card. It’s not quite as straightforward as most people think.

  5. #31


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    It is clear, as taught by the casino consultant, Bill Zender, that the casinos will
    earn more money by dealing very deeply.
    Only if the game is constantly being played. Unfortunately, this is never the case.

  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShipTheCookies View Post
    Only if the game is constantly being played. Unfortunately, this is never the case.
    When would the game be played more with less pen? Every table open would deal fewer rounds per hour. Less pen isn't going to get more players into the casino. Most likely it will have no affect on patrons showing up but there will be some that go somewhere else because of it. If the game is not being played pen is irrelevant. Your argument is like saying an umbrella isn't a good idea in the rain because it doesn't always rain. It is false logic because you don't need an umbrella to stay dry if no rain drops are falling. The only time you need to stay dry is when it is raining. Just like the only time a casino can make any money is when someone is playing. But if someone is playing more rounds per hour increases the casinos theoretical win rate. Increasing pen is one way to increase the number of rounds an hour the players actually playing at the table play.

  7. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Increasing pen is one way to increase the number of rounds an hour the players actually playing at the table play.
    Of course it is. No one is debating that point. Hiring faster dealers will also increase the number of rounds per hour. Casinos could have policies where they don’t allow the dealer to chit chat with customers. That would definitely increase the number of rounds per hour. Are you suggesting casinos do that? If your only objective is to increase number of rounds per hour, I can think of many policies the casino could put in place.

    Some casinos also have automatic shuffle machines to increase the number of rounds per hour. I know of one casino that took them out since the customers liked the dead time during shuffling. Was this casino making a mistake? This casino always has a lot of dealers standing in front of empty tables.

    Btw, if casinos have automatic shuffle machines does this negate the pen argument sicnce there is no wasted time shuffling. I get it takes a little more time to cut a new deck and place the old deck in this machine.

    Since it takes about the same amount of time to shuffle one deck as two decks, would casinos back in the 50s made more money by dealing two decks down to the last card, rather than one deck? This would have generated more hands per hour.

    I think it’s very naive to just think all a casino has to do is increase pen, and pesto they are more profitable. There is a lot more to it than that. There is NOT some simple calculation like Stealth has done to show how much extra a casino can earn by placing the cut card further back.

    Btw, no one has answered my questions on where the cut card should be placed to maximize earnings? Since Zender is the expert, what does he say? Does he think casinos should have no cut card and deal to the last card. This would maximize the number of rounds per hour.

    One last question: Why is it so important to APs that casinos make more money. Maybe casinos are already making all the money their coffers can hold. This last question was sarcastic. It’s probably questions like this that get APs upset at me.

  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Yep. The AC model proved when games open that are as close or closer to the current clients home the quickest way to drive away your customer base is to make your offerings worse. It is a recipe for disaster as has been repeatedly proven. Keeping your games competitive or making them better than the new competition is the way to keep or increase your client base rather than have it steadily dwindle over the next few decades. But the casinos listen to bean counters that say you will make this much more per hour. What the bean counters fail to say is you will make this much more per hour ON THE PEOPLE THAT SHOW UP. If fewer people show up you will lose money. And of some of the ones that continue to show up they lose all they are willing to lose already so making them lose it faster isn't likely to keep their loyalty. So the actual results, as shown repeatedly by real world results, is making the games worse when you have new competition showing up in the form of new casinos will results in a massive reduction of profits that gets worse over time and once the patrons start visiting these more convenient casinos with the same or better games they pretty much are impossible to lure back to being loyal patrons.

    Any business executive that knows his stuff while tell you rule #1 is to keep or increase a loyal customer base. Anything that threatens that should not be done. It is far easier to keep your customer base than to lose customers and have to figure out a way to replace them. Increasing your customer base can be very difficult for some industries especially when more and more competition are available for customers to choose from. And increasing the customer base is usually expensive unless what you offer is so good you clients bring in more clients for you.
    I’d be willing to bet a large sum the 6:5 will not last at MS. And if it does it will be at the absolute lowest stakes with few tables and with players who already have no idea what they are doing. It will probably end up being relegated to a similar position as the $1 Foxwoods tables with the 25 cent ante.

    As far as hand shuffling, I’m surprised MS still won’t give into ASM’s. Dealers having to go from shuffling 6 decks to shuffling 8 decks by hand is not easy. I know from first had experience, and from seeing dealers having to do it at places that went from 6 decks to 8 decks. This may be a good opportunity for people to go Ace-sequencing, if you can get a table by yourself anyway. I know this cannot be easy for the small women dealers whose hands are already tiny. It’s not just the shuffling that’s hard, but the actual handling of 8 decks in a pile and taking them out and putting them back into a shoe that really is tough.

    I was gonna take a trip up there, but now with this garbage, I’ll check out the new casinos opening up elsewhere that will pay a push.

  9. #35


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    When would the game be played more with less pen? Every table open would deal fewer rounds per hour. Less pen isn't going to get more players into the casino. Most likely it will have no affect on patrons showing up but there will be some that go somewhere else because of it. If the game is not being played pen is irrelevant. Your argument is like saying an umbrella isn't a good idea in the rain because it doesn't always rain. It is false logic because you don't need an umbrella to stay dry if no rain drops are falling. The only time you need to stay dry is when it is raining. Just like the only time a casino can make any money is when someone is playing. But if someone is playing more rounds per hour increases the casinos theoretical win rate. Increasing pen is one way to increase the number of rounds an hour the players actually playing at the table play.
    You really are not that smart....are you??? How much money is a casino making dealing 5.8 of 6 decks if NOBODY is playing? Huh? Please tell me this smartass!!!

  10. #36


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    Quote Originally Posted by ShipTheCookies View Post
    You really are not that smart....are you??? How much money is a casino making dealing 5.8 of 6 decks if NOBODY is playing? Huh? Please tell me this smartass!!!
    ShipTheCookies,

    I'm not Three, but I can answer this one: they're making precisely the same amount of money as they do when the pen is 3/6 and no one is playing.

    Hope this helps!

    Dog Hand

  11. #37


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dog Hand View Post
    ShipTheCookies,

    I'm not Three, but I can answer this one: they're making precisely the same amount of money as they do when the pen is 3/6 and no one is playing.

    Hope this helps!

    Dog Hand

    Great posts Dog Hand and ShipTheCookies! You said it better than I did in my lengthy posts. It’s surprising to me how many people miss this point. I’m still waiting for an answer from Three. He’ll probably talk about something related to umbrellas and rain. I’ve read that analogy a couple times and I’m still trying to figure it out. It was almost as confusing as Stealth’s analogy about McDonalds telling someone they can’t order French Fries because they are fat. I still haven’t figured out how that analogy relates to casinos.

  12. #38


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    "Most likely it will have no affect on patrons"

    Relapse!

    Don

  13. #39


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    Don - I presume you're highlighting text, then copying and pasting, rather than retyping it. In case you're not aware, you can highlight text, then click the Quote button that appears. This will Quote the text and indicate its source.

    For example:
    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Relapse!

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