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Thread: 2 questions for Norm, Don or other genius

  1. #1


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    2 questions for Norm, Don or other genius

    1. How does the floating advantage work for CSM betting ?

    2. Do the HE figures for number of decks, das, split etc etc, from the math gurus like Griffin, Wong et al , have the same precision for CSM's...or are there minute differences??

    Example...das for 6 decks in a shoe game is +.14% (Griffin)...is it precisely the same for a 6-deck CSM game?

    Thank you in anticipation

    ChuckyBaby

  2. #2


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    Read about the cut card effect, I believe that is the root of your question. You will see more small cards come out in a cut card game in comparison to a CSM game.

    The answer is no, the edge is not the same as CSM games. CSM games have very slightly lower house edge, though you will play more hands per hour.

    House edge impact on 6 deck is about .02, it's higher on single deck CSM. If you are a basic strategy player, your edge might be slightly better than that compared to a cut card game.

    I'm not really sure how to address your question regarding floating advantage, as the decks and count remain at or close to 0 at the start of every hand.
    Last edited by BurtMacklin; 05-31-2018 at 02:47 PM.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by BurtMacklin View Post

    I'm not really sure how to address your question regarding floating advantage, as the decks and count remain at or close to 0 at the start of every hand.
    Well, that's not necessarily so because there are CSM games and CSM games. They're not all the same. Some clubs have a discard pile to which they add discards for x rounds and then place those cards back in the device. They don't all place all the cards at the end of every round. So there's not a simple answer to that question I would suggest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BurtMacklin View Post
    Read about the cut card effect, I believe that is the root of your question. You will see more small cards come out in a cut card game in comparison to a CSM game.

    The answer is no, the edge is not the same as CSM games. CSM games have very slightly lower house edge, though you will play more hands per hour.

    House edge impact on 6 deck is about .02, it's higher on single deck CSM. If you are a basic strategy player, your edge might be slightly better than that compared to a cut card game.

    I'm not really sure how to address your question regarding floating advantage, as the decks and count remain at or close to 0 at the start of every hand.
    Can you explain why CSM would have a different house edge, and where you find it to be .02 ??
    Also, can you explain why the floating advantage (which is related to depth in the 6 decks), should not apply to CSM?? Is it because only a few cards are excluded from the rest of the 6 decks in the machine?
    And how were the values (e.g., the das = .14%) actually obtained?

    Thanks for indulging my curiousity...Chucky Baby

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    Quote Originally Posted by chucky baby View Post
    Can you explain why CSM would have a different house edge, and where you find it to be .02 ??
    https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/10/

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    Quote Originally Posted by BurtMacklin View Post
    "Read about the cut card effect, I believe that is the root of
    your question. You will see more small cards come out in a
    cut card game in comparison to a CSM game."
    The Cut Card Effect you are presenting incorrectly.
    In a single deck game using a cut card tends to
    give you one more round whenever the TC is
    negative.

    Do you see why? I hope that you do.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    The Cut Card Effect you are presenting incorrectly.
    In a single deck game using a cut card tends to
    give you one more round whenever the TC is
    negative.

    Do you see why? I hope that you do.
    And do you not see that, precisely because this happens every time the count is sufficiently negative, that extra round always is more likely to feature small (undesired) cards, which is at the root of the CCE?

    Don

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    Thank you Phoebe

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    Don,

    The C C E is a concept that is used in comparing
    Single Deck games with a cut card and without
    a cut card, but a set number of rounds.

    As a shoe game is not dealt without a cut card,
    there's no issue that justifies the existence of
    the term "Cut Card Effect" in a shoe game thread.

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    Cut card effect in a shoe game(not csm)...
    For those hands with five more cards to play before the cut card,
    Some games use 4 cards and play one more game. Big cards are used more often.
    Some games use 5+ cards and no more game. Small cards are used more often.

    Floating advantage, (due to the density of natural value cards, 7/8/9, I think), should not apply to CSM. Because there is no "end of the shoe TC"
    Last edited by peterlee; 06-02-2018 at 08:05 PM.

  11. #11


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    Don,

    The C C E is a concept that is used in comparing
    Single Deck games with a cut card and without
    a cut card, but a set number of rounds.

    As a shoe game is not dealt without a cut card,
    there's no issue that justifies the existence of
    the term "Cut Card Effect" in a shoe game thread.
    Sorry, but that's not true, because BS edges are almost universally quoted as off-the-top advantages, by convention. And so, the question of where the difference of 0.02% came from is absolutely pertinent, and it comes from the CCE of a shoe game.

    Researchers such as Norm and Mike Shackleford provide online calculators whose shoe edges differ from what you'll find in my book, or just about all other BJ books. And the reason for that, is the CCE, no matter how many decks are used.

    Don

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