Do casinos really make mistakes by barring marginal counters?

[Stealth]

Stealth, I’m surprised you would make a statement like this. Of course I have more information than just seeing someone changing his bet. Since I’m playing at the table, I also know the count. If the person is changing his bet with the count, then I suspect he might be a counter. The first time it might have been a random event but by the third time, I know he’s a counter.

There are also other things that mark them as a counter, like the way they scan the table, ask to see people’s cards when the dealer shows an ace, always start a shoe with min bet, almost never tip, show little emotion, take insurance when the count is +3 or higher and not take insurance when it’s lower than +3, etc. Trust me, the people I’ve identified as counters are counters. They also usually check off all the boxes on what a counter looks like. Most people should know what this means.

Since you’re also a counter, I’m surprised you find it hard to spot a fellow counter. To be honest with you, I’ve got to where I can spot a counter almost before they place their first bet. After 15 mins, my suspicions are confirmed.

This isn’t a big deal, I’m just surprised you think it’s difficult to spot counters. As I’m sure you know, all counting systems lead to someone betting more when the deck is positive and less when it’s zero or negative, so it doesn’t matter what counting system a person uses.

This has nothing to do with what the casino should do when a counter has been identified. Even though I’ve identified many counters over the past 20 years, I have not seen one backed off. That’s why I’m wondering why so many people think casinos are doing this.

Well, I am happy to have surprised you! Not surprised to see that you have been well trained in the time tested ways to detect a counter. Bill Zender will be proud of you.

You will be even more surprised when I tell you I can spot the "circumstantial" evidence of counting as well as anyone. Give credence to the fact, that your observations are circumstantial and that you have no "proof" of why they are doing what they do. You could just be watching a gambler. Trust you is a concept that falls short with my involvement in this dialog.

You might also be more surprised when I tell you that your "tells" are woefully inadequate to detect many effective counters. If you watch me, and many others, play you would have much difficulty.

And if you think the casinos don't back off people they think are counters then you are either trying to spread misinformation or just ignorant. I will agree that many suspected counters are not backed off unless they are winning or they are repeat players that are winners. And this is not just an opinion, I, as many others on this site, have irrefutable proof that it happens frequently.

[Stealth]

One more comment: Everyone of these people play unrated, which is probably the biggest tell they’re counters. At my local casinos, almost everybody plays rated. So when one of these young traveling counters come along and plays unrated, it’s pretty easy to know they’re counters before they place their first bet.

If I am visiting your casino because I am on a unrelated trip and will never return, then why in the hell do I want to play rated. I could care less that they have a desire to ID everyone that shows up and to track their activities for marketing or for counter measure reasons.

They offer a game, define the rules, control the amounts to be wagered and take on all comers. Then they decide that the players they have are too good to play their game and might win. THEN CHANGE THE DAMN GAME! Then we will not come.

But that is not what they do. They put the cut card deeper and kick out people for no good reason and put their names (if known) in nationwide databases without proof they they did anything wrong. Just that they are a "known advantage player", "played perfect basic strategy" and "used a ramp of 100 to 400 on xyz game". What the hell does that mean?

So, if I go over to McDonald's and order an extra value meal #2 and they tell me that I am too fat and that I can not get that but I can get a salad and they are going to notify all the other McDonald's to prevent me from ordering a #2. Silly, isn't it!

Anyone that sits at any of your games EXPECTS TO WIN! Are they advantage players?

You will be pleased to know that I have now expended all the energy I am willing to allocate to one player, so I will put you in my book to be excluded from further responses. You've been backed off.

[Dbs6582]

If I am visiting your casino because I am on a unrelated trip and will never return, then why in the hell do I want to play rated. I could care less that they have a desire to ID everyone that shows up and to track their activities for marketing or for counter measure reasons.

They offer a game, define the rules, control the amounts to be wagered and take on all comers. Then they decide that the players they have are too good to play their game and might win. THEN CHANGE THE DAMN GAME! Then we will not come.

But that is not what they do. They put the cut card deeper and kick out people for no good reason and put their names (if known) in nationwide databases without proof they they did anything wrong. Just that they are a "known advantage player", "played perfect basic strategy" and "used a ramp of 100 to 400 on xyz game". What the hell does that mean?

So, if I go over to McDonald's and order an extra value meal #2 and they tell me that I am too fat and that I can not get that but I can get a salad and they are going to notify all the other McDonald's to prevent me from ordering a #2. Silly, isn't it!

Anyone that sits at any of your games EXPECTS TO WIN! Are they advantage players?

You will be pleased to know that I have now expended all the energy I am willing to allocate to one player, so I will put you in my book to be excluded from further responses. You've been backed off.

Stealth, you’re missing my point, but what’s new? I get why a traveling person doesn’t want to play rated. I have traveled to casinos too and play unrated. My point isn’t why these people don’t play rated; it’s that playing unrated has helped me spot counters before they place their first bet, especially when they tell the pit critter they’re visiting their grandma. Lol.

I was responding to your following comment: “You make statements that you can identify a card counter by his bet ramp and I contend you can’t identify anything other than he changed his bet.”

I was merely pointing out that your statement was wrong. I do NOT only identify a card counter by his bet ramp; his bet ramp has to correlate to the count for me to suspect someone of counting. I also identify him by other tells already discussed.

This has nothing to do with how you play. I’m sure you’re more sophisticated with your approach so it’d be harder for me to identify you as a counter. I’m assuming you don’t wear a hat or visor since this is a big tip off you’re a counter. Lol. But I’m pretty sure I would know you’re a counter if I played with you on one of my DD games for an hour. As you know, to play with an advantage at some point you have to raise your bet with the count.

As far as your McDonald’s analogy that’s one of the dumbest analogies I’ve ever read. I had to read it several times just to understand the point you were trying to make, and I still don’t know if I get it. Here’s what you’re missing: It is not McDonald’s responsibility to make sure you eat correctly. The guy/gal behind the counter doesn’t care what you order or why you ordered it. They are never going to tell you you can’t order something because you’re too fat. Are you serious? They could be sued if they did something like this. Why would they call another McDonalds to tell them you are fat and they don’t want you eating fattening foods? I get how you might benefit from this since you have little will power (in your hypothetical example). But how would that help McDonalds and their shareholders? McDonalds is a business and their purpose is to return money to their shareholders. They do this by selling a product that their customers want. Again, this is just another tip for all the APs that don’t understand why businesses exists and what their purpose is. You’d be surprised at how many people don’t understand this. The mainstream media are clueless on why businesses exists. They think it’s to create jobs.

The reason casinos backoff APs is because it helps their bottom line and it’s legal. The reason they call other casinos and put AP names in databases is because it’s in their collective interest to do this. I get why you don’t like it (I didn’t like it when it happened to me also), but I still understand it from the casino’s perspective. Btw, sports bookies do this too. If they have someone who is constantly winning, they will no longer take their action. They might not know what this person is doing but they know they are dealing with someone who has developed a winning system. I learned this on a GWAE podcast.

When I threw out the “trust me” comment, I did this since i know it gets APs rallied up. I sometimes throw out comments like this because i know APs are very sensitive and they will jump on the slightest thing I say, even though it’s insignificant. I do think APs should lighten up and get a sense of humor. Life is too short to take things so seriously.

As far as backing me off, doesn’t that mean you’ve stooped to the casinos level? I’m surprised you used those words. I get what you mean - you no longer want to debate me. That’s okay with me....it’s been fun while it lasted. To each his own. I wish you well.

[Freightman]

Stealth, you’re missing my point, but what’s new? I get why a traveling person doesn’t want to play rated. I have traveled to casinos too and play unrated. My point isn’t why these people don’t play rated; it’s that playing unrated has helped me spot counters before they place their first bet, especially when they tell the pit critter they’re visiting their grandma. Lol.

I was responding to your following comment: “You make statements that you can identify a card counter by his bet ramp and I contend you can’t identify anything other than he changed his bet.”

I was merely pointing out that your statement was wrong. I do NOT only identify a card counter by his bet ramp; his bet ramp has to correlate to the count for me to suspect someone of counting. I also identify him by other tells already discussed.

This has nothing to do with how you play. I’m sure you’re more sophisticated with your approach so it’d be harder for me to identify you as a counter. I’m assuming you don’t wear a hat or visor since this is a big tip off you’re a counter. Lol. But I’m pretty sure I would know you’re a counter if I played with you on one of my DD games for an hour. As you know, to play with an advantage at some point you have to raise your bet with the count.

As far as your McDonald’s analogy that’s one of the dumbest analogies I’ve ever read. I had to read it several times just to understand the point you were trying to make, and I still don’t know if I get it. Here’s what you’re missing: It is not McDonald’s responsibility to make sure you eat correctly. The guy/gal behind the counter doesn’t care what you order or why you ordered it. They are never going to tell you you can’t order something because you’re too fat. Are you serious? They could be sued if they did something like this. Why would they call another McDonalds to tell them you are fat and they don’t want you eating fattening foods? I get how you might benefit from this since you have little will power (in your hypothetical example). But how would that help McDonalds and their shareholders? McDonalds is a business and their purpose is to return money to their shareholders. They do this by selling a product that their customers want. Again, this is just another tip for all the APs that don’t understand why businesses exists and what their purpose is. You’d be surprised at how many people don’t understand this. The mainstream media are clueless on why businesses exists. They think it’s to create jobs.

The reason casinos backoff APs is because it helps their bottom line and it’s legal. The reason they call other casinos and put AP names in databases is because it’s in their collective interest to do this. I get why you don’t like it (I didn’t like it when it happened to me also), but I still understand it from the casino’s perspective. Btw, sports bookies do this too. If they have someone who is constantly winning, they will no longer take their action. They might not know what this person is doing but they know they are dealing with someone who has developed a winning system. I learned this on a GWAE podcast.

When I threw out the “trust me” comment, I did this since i know it gets APs rallied up. I sometimes throw out comments like this because i know APs are very sensitive and they will jump on the slightest thing I say, even though it’s insignificant. I do think APs should lighten up and get a sense of humor. Life is too short to take things so seriously.

As far as backing me off, doesn’t that mean you’ve stooped to the casinos level? I’m surprised you used those words. I get what you mean - you no longer want to debate me. That’s okay with me....it’s been fun while it lasted. To each his own. I wish you well.

Most of the fucking planet don't get your point. Perhaps most of the planet don't think your point is valid, or worthwhile. i would certainly concur with that assessment

[Dbs6582]

Most of the fucking planet don't get your point. Perhaps most of the planet don't think your point is valid, or worthwhile. i would certainly concur with that assessment

You got to be semi-inteligent to understand my points. They are pretty complicated so they could be beyond your comprehension.

My main point is I can identify counters. I’m surprised that’s such a hard concept for people to understand. It’s not that hard to know if someone is counting....all you need to do is see if he’s moving his bet with the count.

Btw, did you understand Stealth’s McDonalds analogy? I didn’t. Somehow I think he was trying to relate it to backoffs at a casinos. I read it a couple more times after I made my post and I’m now more confused than ever. Since you’re still responding to me and Stealth isn’t, could you help me out with his analogy. I’m trying to understand how big time APs think.

[Freightman]

You got to be semi-inteligent to understand my points. They are pretty complicated so they could be beyond your comprehension.

.

I understand your point very well. My position to your perspective is that - you're an idiot, and only other idiots would support your position.

See, I did it again - always pleased to assist an idiot in pursuing his goal of longest thread.

[Dbs6582]

I understand your point very well. My position to your perspective is that - you're an idiot, and only other idiots would support your position.

See, I did it again - always pleased to assist an idiot in pursuing his goal of longest thread.

Thanks Freightman! That helps! You always do such a good job in clairfing your position.

Btw, I’ve now been backed off three times, twice by casinos and once by an AP (Stealth). I wonder if anybody else can lay claim to being backed off by both casinos and APs. That’s quite an accomplishment if I must say so myself. I’ll bet I’m in a category all my own.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

propitiatory - having power to atone for or offered by way of expiation or propitiation.
propitiatory - intended to reconcile or appease; "Dbs6582 sent flowers as a propitiatory gesture."

[Dbs6582]

propitiatory - having power to atone for or offered by way of expiation or propitiation.
propitiatory - intended to reconcile or appease; "Dbs6582 sent flowers as a propitiatory gesture."

Thanks Flash...I think. What I’ve noticed is this is a super sensitive group. I’ve been on this forum since last October and I’m the first person I’ve seen backed off by an AP. All because I said I could identify a counter.

But when I reread Stealth’s post now, I noticed most of it was really a rant against the casinos for backing him off, so I think he just needed someone to take his frustrations out on. Kind of like when your boss kicks you (figuratively) at work and then that person comes home and kicks their dog. It must be a stressful life being a full time AP always living in fear of being backed off. It’s probably why APs are so highly strung and have hard time with humor.

What I’ve noticed is they don’t mind putting other people down (Zee has pointed this out many times too) but if someone who’s not in the club makes one of their own look stupid (which isn’t hard with people like Freightman) then they ban together. It was interesting when Three told me people have been sending him private emails about me. That’s kind of sad actually. I didn’t mean to disrupt this community to that degree. Sorry about that.

[ZeeBabar]

DBS6582, you may not have seen this.

https://www.888casino.com/blog/aphea...-and-lose-less

[Stealth]

DBS6582, you may not have seen this.

https://www.888casino.com/blog/aphea...-and-lose-less

Zee,

Nice job highlighting this one.

A noted casino consultant has to tell the mind numbing management how to improve their profitability by letting people play the game.

And they will not believe him.......................or Zender.............

[Dbs6582]

Zee,

Nice job highlighting this one.

A noted casino consultant has to tell the mind numbing management how to improve their profitability by letting people play the game.

And they will not believe him.......................or Zender.............

Yes, I did see this! And I’ve read many versions of this from different so called “experts”. It basically supports everything I’ve been saying. In all these articles, there is no mention of supply vs demand. The assumption is more supply equals more demand...and thus more profit. There is no economist worth his salt that believes this. However, I know this is a major tentent in the AP’s belief system....if the casinos would only move the cut card further back, then the casinos and APs could live in perfect harmony, both earning more money.

This is one of many inconsistencies I’ve seen in AP logic. On the one hand, they berate the casinos for causing people to lose too much money, but then on the other hand they are upset at casinos for not taking more money from people. Which is it? I’ve come to see no mater what the casinos do, APs are going to complain.

Btw, I’ve got two of Eliot Jacobson’s books and read all his 888casino blogs. He’s very good in some areas, but off-base in other areas. You might say this is an area where he is off-base.

[Dbs6582]

DBS6582, you may not have seen this.

https://www.888casino.com/blog/aphea...-and-lose-less

Zee, please reread Eliot’s blog and you’ll see he misses why most people come to casinos. They come for entertainment! In his top 5 reasons on how to increase casinos profits, he never touchs on this. His total focus is on increasing supply, thus he wants faster dealers, etc. He never talks about wanting more sociable dealers or how casinos should treat their customers. In the entertainment industry, this is what drives customer retention and profits.

Using Eliot and most AP’s logic, the way for casinos to increase revenues with slots would be by having less time between spins. The slot machine could easily be programmed to reduce the time all the stupid stuff appears on the screen before the player knows if he’s a winner or loser. The computer program knows instantly if that spin is a winner. Why wait 15 to 30 seconds for a bunch of things spinning and falling out of the sky? Using AP logic, if the time between slot spins was reduced by 50%, then slot revenue would double. I’m sure Stealth could help with a calculation showing the casinos how they could earn millions and billions more by just reducing the time between slot spins.

Casinos could also speed up craps but not allowing people to blow on the dice. That takes time and decreases the amount of rolls per hour. This type of thinking could be extended to all casino games. The only metric would be rounds per hour, slot spins per hour, dice rolls per hour, etc.

Since APs believe people come to casinos with an unlimited amount of money to lose, I can envision now how an AP run casino would operate. They would probably hire people who would rome the casino with a cattle prodder. If they saw a customer taking too long to roll the dice, make a decision on some card game, etc, this employee would give him a slight shock with the cattle prodder to speed the game up. Wow, what a great idea to speed up games, generate more rounds per hour and bring in more revenue to the caisnos. I wonder if some casinos executive is reading this and will implement it. If they do, I want credit for coming up with this idea. It all came from understanding AP logic.