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Thread: The ethics of tutoring

  1. #27
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    I almost made a seminar when the price was reasonable. I was interested in the non-counting opportunities. But I left on my trip before he messaged me with the location near where I was targeting. I found his phone number when it would have been a close call for making the seminar. I was reaping in big money and elected not to go. If I remember right, by my results I regretted that decision. I would have been money ahead missing the results I had and paying the few hundred dollars for the seminars. He has always been helpful when I asked him about certain specifics.

  2. #28


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    To the OP.... Why would offering coaching for money be unethical? It's routine in poker, sports, and music, etc... As far as creating more counting "monsters", don't worry about it. The vast majority of "counters" are not good enough to beat the game. Like I've said before, the casinos should embrace counters, because so few of them are winners. I used to deal the game. Take my word; many are called, very few are chosen. Good luck..

  3. #29


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    Overall, some great replies and discussion. Some confusing arguments and needless anger as well, but this is the interwebz. Thanks to everyone for contributing

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post

    Do I think what they are doing is unethical in that they create more card counters then would otherwise be created and thereby thin the herd of viable targets for the rest of us? Not really. What would make you think that because you got the fishing hole first no one else was allowed to fish there. It is public water. You get my point.

    As for offering certain services for free, I must again point out that we all pay for books, videos, and a variety of other services that were instrumental in our development. Are payments for these any less than paying for mentoring your refer to?

    I do offer mentoring to select people "that I want to help" and depending on the circumstances it may be free or may have some fee attached. How and why these decisions are made are not topics I am willing to discuss here but will discuss with any qualified interested party in a confidential environment.

    I offer no apology for what I do nor do I criticize those who provide the same of better services for free. It s their choice.

    Lastly, the post asked if it was unethical to teach others because of the impact to the existing players and the marketplace. My answer is no.

    I will end by saying that if you are going to undertake teaching someone then be certain you have a curriculum that is suited for their needs. Often the prospect has no idea what this means. If you are serious at producing an advantage player then you must first start with the technical basics and skills required. That is about 25% of the training needed. The other 75% are a myriad of other topics that are much more important to their success.

    The value of my assistance is something you will have to ask of those that I have helped.

    This is a response to a thoughtful post that deserved an answer. It is not a yes or no question and has to be considered in many contexts.

    Mine is one more.
    Great post, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. My thoughts, though, were never really that is was unethical to create more APs because it disadvantaged existing APs. Rather, my thoughts were that it could be considered unethical to create new APs in a scalable business model because you will be essentially selling a rapidly diminishing product with each new AP you train. Again, no play lasts forever--a casino can only take so much of a loss before countermeasures will be taken and the play will be dead.

    Id like to hear more on your mentoring. If you're amenable, please shoot me an email at [email protected] .

    Quote Originally Posted by dan7112 View Post
    To the OP.... Why would offering coaching for money be unethical? It's routine in poker, sports, and music, etc... As far as creating more counting "monsters", don't worry about it. The vast majority of "counters" are not good enough to beat the game. Like I've said before, the casinos should embrace counters, because so few of them are winners. I used to deal the game. Take my word; many are called, very few are chosen. Good luck..
    Interesting thoughts, but I mainly disagree.

    Firstly, of course most counters aren't good enough to beat the game. That was never up for debate. I think we can all agree casinos waste their time on at least 90% of would-be Counters, for a variety of reasons. As to comparing training people for other endeavors, I have to say, apples to oranges. If you teach someone to mix beats so he can be a DJ, it's not going to affect the efficacy of training other DJs. Music is nearly infinitely versatile. There's no set allotment for people to enjoy entertainment. There is a set amount of money a casino can lose before a play is dead.

    Poker is closer, in that for people to win, others need to lose. But most of the money in poker is not won by beating other skilled players; it's won by beating recreational players and not losing it back to skilled players. There's not that much difference between the best handful of pros. There's a substantially bigger difference between, say, a winning 5-10 player and a 5-10 regfish. You can argue that there are only so many fish around, and every trained person at a table means one less fish at the table, but to make real money at poker, after establishing solid fundamentals, it's game selection, rather than pure skill, that wins the day. No one likes just getting completely outclassed by everyone at a table, but generally, if recs want to play poker, then recs will play poker. Getting to play with valuable recs isn't something that poker coaching is selling; you'd be better off taking a sales course for that.

    Advantage play is different from all those endeavors. It's more like gold mining. You can sell people better equipment so they can make more money while they can, but in the end, the vein will run dry. The first "gold-o-matic" you sell will may well be good value for money. The 500th, probably not. And these sites obviously all hope for the most subscribers possible.

    Another aspect of AP coaching that someone mentioned in the thread is deceptive marketing. Take Bob Dancer, for instance. His claim to fame was "million dollar video poker"--winning over a million dollars playing video poker.And he only started with (IIRC) 6000 dollars! "Sounds great," thinks the prospective buyer, "that can be me too!"

    Except it can't. The plays Dancer played are gone and will never be back. And even if they were available, the fact is that Dancer essentially luckboxed his way to fame. Despite having nowhere near the necessary bankroll to play high limit machines, Dancer and his wife hit a 100 k jackpot and a 400 k jackpot in the same night. He essentially bought a winning lotto ticket. He might have had a positive EV when he played due to promotions, but his (lack of) bankroll management was complete madness. It was a losing play, for sure; but he doesnt market that. He just markets that he won.

    Furthermore, how can you responsibly quantify what you are teaching? We can (and probably should) laugh about anyone who actually paid the 20 k for Moo's course. But if we're being real here, I right now know of at least one play with a higher EV than 20 k. So would it be ethical of me to sell it for that much? The reason I personally won't touch it is because of truly sick variance and potentially horrific downswings. Should I be required to mention these in detail to a prospective buyer, or just "lol caveat emptor, pal"? Let's say something changed after I sold the info the first time and now I value the EV at 15 k. Can I sell it at a discount to a second student, or do I keep my prices consistent? Do I owe anything to the first student? These are the types of questions I was considering when I thought about charging for students.

    Looking forward to any new discussion.

  4. #30


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    Quote Originally Posted by houyi View Post
    Advantage play is different from all those endeavors. It's more like gold mining. You can sell people better equipment so they can make more money while they can, but in the end, the vein will run dry. The first "gold-o-matic" you sell will may well be good value for money. The 500th, probably not. And these sites obviously all hope for the most subscribers possible.
    Any skill set must be relevant to the conditions of its time. A poker book written in 1995 would be of little use in today's games. That being said, the casinos are not going to run out of money, nor is money becoming any scarcer.

    Quote Originally Posted by houyi View Post
    but to make real money at poker, after establishing solid fundamentals, it's game selection, rather than pure skill, that wins the day.
    Same with BJ. For those who may not have noticed, the BJ games being offered today include everything from 6:5 BJ, shallower penetration, to visible dealer hole cards, where house wins a push! But there are still good games, if you know what you're looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by houyi View Post
    Furthermore, how can you responsibly quantify what you are teaching?
    You can do your best, and if you're sincere about your product and can interest buyers, that's the American dream.

    As a poker player I can say that if you take the time, you'll find that almost all the information you need is out there for free. If you're lazy and don't want to take the time, then there are lots of sources who claim to have all the info you need in a "neat little package" for a price. You decide. Are these sources unethical? Mostly not. Just redundant. And if your willing to pay for what they're selling, that's perfectly fine with me.

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