The ethics of tutoring

[houyi]

(Long post for context, scroll to the bottom for the meat and potatoes)

Greetings all,

When I joined this forum several years ago, I was a part time counter who thought 3:2 blackjack with solid rules and good penetration was the entire world of advantage play. Since that time, I've turned pro, learned about machine play, carny games, poker, tracking, and some online stuff, and have made hundreds of thousands of dollars while working as an AP. I've met some old school pros in the field, and heard about 500 variants of the gloom and doom story about how advantage play will be a thing of the past in five years time. While I'm sure things were easier back in the day, I never really took the naysayers seriously. I just expanded my techniques so that if I had trouble find one type of play, there'd be two others to keep me in action. Easy game.

Then, I had an unbelievable downswing. This wasn't like the downswings I experience counting. Those were fine for me because I knew I only had a 1% edge. These games I had a 10% edge, a 50% edge, even a 100% edge, and I still just kept losing. Literally nothing worked. I had one of the old school pros audit my game to make sure I wasn't mistaking play-bad for run-bad, and he just shook his head and said, "I can't believe how bad you run." Great, so I wasn't deluding myself, I was just cursed.

As the weeks turned to months and I continued to experienced losing or break-even plays while expenses chipped away at my bankroll, I started thinking about ways out. Going back to a finance job wasn't happening. I could scale everything back, grind 2/5 and machine plays, and live like a low-stakes pauper for awhile, but let's face it, grinding is cool when you're in college, but not so much when you've been killing it the last few years. Finally, I thought about a few offers friends had made for paid mentorship.

To be frank, I'd always thought considered AP training sites to be one step above a complete scam. After all, I started with nothing but the internet and a few books I'd ordered off amazon. How could I justify charging thousands of dollars for stuff I figured out on my own? But as the run-bad continued, I started almost trying to convince myself of its legitimacy: "You know stuff worth tens of thousands of dollars, why wouldn't it be alright to charge for it?" Suddenly the training site owners I looked down upon as failed APs were appearing more and more like sharp businessmen.

Whether it was was ego or ethics that stopped me, I can't say, but I never did train anyone. I scaled back, bailed myself out, and eventually the variance reversed itself. But even as my bankroll started to inch back to where it had been, the question remained in my mind: is training people to enter essentially a zero-sum game ethical? Any play is only worth so much, so by training others you are by necessity reducing the overall pie. Is this justifiable?

tl;dr: Even if you are selling information and techniques worth multiples of what you charge, is it ethical to do so if the more people you train, the more difficult making money will be for all involved? And bonus question: do you think most training sites are just run by APs who couldn't hack it, people who want money and damn the ethics, or just sharp businessmen looking for variance-free income?

[21forme]

do you think most training sites are just run by APs who couldn't hack it, people who want money and damn the ethics, or just sharp businessmen looking for variance-free income?

All of the above.

For a while, I teamed with a guy who had the worst "luck." We were playing a game with a 60-105% edge. While playing together at the same table, we'd pretty much break even. He'd leave for the day and I'd continue playing. A short time later, playing solo, I'd hit a big hand. This happened more than once. It's like he had a black cloud over his head. He gave it up.

[ShipTheCookies]

There's one AP move I have rotten "luck" at and there is another that I've never lost on. And the "rotten luck" one has an edge much much larger than the other. Both are table games plays.

[Freightman]

An excellent post - thanks - I will not respond to all of your questions.

I don't know the dollar value of your downswing, but it sounds like substantially more than chump change. I to, had a major downswing a few years ago, approaching loss rates completely skewed from my long term averages. It bothers you, thinking the next session is simply another donation to the house. The best of us are not immune to statistical norms, and the effects make us question our abilities. I guarantee all that had I played to a 5% ror, I would have busted out. Never resized as I played to a virtual 0 Ror. I congratulate you fighting out of this - it shows what you're made of, and what you need to be a long term success.

Interestingly enough, my biggest upswing, about a year prior to the downswing, surpassed that depressing event, and the dollars lost during that time, have long since been replaced. Such is the mindset.

I go into the casino and I expect to win, regardless of the actual outcome. I can't say that I gamble that much outside of bj - I strive to be the very best that I can be - though I don't practice much anymore, or play the hours I used to. Yet, I believe the quality of my game to be the best it has ever been - some of that belief as a result of tidbits and nuggets I've picked up here, other from the gradual change in my stats pattern, and how the above comments each relate to the other.

I've mentored, but outside of some casual 2 person team play apseveral years ago, my preferences keep me as a solo artist practitioner.

It seems that your mindset is full time pro, mine is pro in approach, part time by design.

Best wishes for continued success.

[houyi]

There's one AP move I have rotten "luck" at and there is another that I've never lost on. And the "rotten luck" one has an edge much much larger than the other. Both are table games plays.

Obviously, variance can be a contributor to this, and indeed, the plays I was doing on this downswing have higher variance than counting. But yeah, at some point, it's just completely maddening.

[ZeeBabar]

A few answers but none answering the question asked. Is it ethical? There are plenty of threads about variance and losses and bad luck. The idiots take every opportunity to relate a personal story but no one addresses the question. I have never been good enough to even consider the question.

[Freightman]

Zee said

"The idiots take every opportunity to relate a personal story"
Fuck you!

Zee also said
"I have never been good enough to even consider the question"
Agreed

You pompostic little prick - you hide behind your abject stupidity, then have the fucking audacity to bite the hands that feed. Whatever goodwill you had with me is gone.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Freightman,

Zee gets what Zee deserves.

Maybe he will go back to Afghanistan

and open an underground casino.

[Three]

You pompostic little prick - you hide behind your abject stupidity, then have the fucking audacity to bite the hands that feed. Whatever goodwill you had with me is gone.

Welcome to the club. Our meetings are on Mondays but you can pay on Friday.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

Freightman,?

I am pompous enough to point out that you typo'd "pompostic"

L O L ,,,, Zee' is so obnoxious that he can stand to be pilloried.

[ZenMaster_Flash]

houi.

I have never charged anyone a single dollar for my time-consuming mentoring.

BUT yes, your cynicism is well-grounded. Skepticism is an invaluable human trait.

My most recent 'acolytes' are a pair of recent college grads who begin Med School in Sept.

After a few months, they are 'up' over $75,000. Did I ask for 10%? 1%? NO.

If they offer a lagniappe for my assistance, I must admit that I'll probably accept.

[21forme]

My most recent 'acolytes' are a pair of recent college grads who begin Med School in Sept.

After a few months, they are 'up' over $75,000. Did I ask for 10%? 1%? NO.

A free colonoscopy?

[Freightman]

A free colonoscopy?

Someone needs to pick up the dinner tab first.