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Thread: Accumulating EV through fake money

  1. #14
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    No they count as long as you are playing the wong in style the N0 was calculated for. You played those hands at a min bet of zero. The only compelling argument I have heard for HILO is the ability to count down two shoes at once. I have heard KJ talk of this and is imperfect so I am skeptical that playing with such errors really helps you much but you can zoom toward your N0 twice as fast until you wong in but your N0 will be higher by up to 30% or so over very strong counts. That is still likely to be an improvement in time spent to N0 but not by much.

  2. #15


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    I backcount two tables or play one and backcount the other using Hi-Lo frequently. I don't know what you mean about imperfect. If you do it well you have the count perfectly and have the option to always play the best table.

    As for ZK's original question, the answer is yes if and only if you count the fake money and all your fake winnings as part of your bankroll.

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    MIM, I was referring to KJ posting about missing cards as he does this and other minor errors. I have no argument against if you do it perfectly. I just don't think many can without being extremely obvious. Surely you don't want to wear a sign saying I am a card counter. If you can do it perfectly and fly under the radar as I am sure a few can, just like with any really hard thing to do, you will reap the full rewards of your extra effort.

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    For sure. It's not easy and conditions need to be just right. If your timing is a bit off you miss cards and the pen goes down.

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    User is banned, content deleted.

  6. #19
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    L o l

  7. #20


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    I think it depends on how you play it.

    If you're playing 7x riffle shuffled decks on a table, IMO yeah. (min shuffles for random distribution) It 'may' indicate where you are sitting in the cosmic scheme of things.. But, if you're playing for pretend money on a computer it most likely won't because they are only using a pseudo random algorithm to generate the cards. It's as random as getting a deck out of a packet. You can tell if its pseudo because the cards in the game will be dealt instantly (local machine generated), online (where they use their hardware generator, radio frequencey mod or radioactive decay) there will be a delay as the server sends you cards. That's just not for security.

    Which gets me thinking more about the validity of simulations. They are useless if its pseudo random. I had to write my own importer to get data from the Australian National Uni quantum lab to ensure that I was using real random numbers.

    I'm just a guy trying to understand..
    Last edited by mr_fabulous; 02-19-2013 at 03:16 AM.

  8. #21
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_fabulous View Post
    I think it depends on how you play it.

    If you're playing 7x riffle shuffled decks on a table, IMO yeah. (min shuffles for random distribution) It 'may' indicate where you are sitting in the cosmic scheme of things.. But, if you're playing for pretend money on a computer it most likely won't because they are only using a pseudo random algorithm to generate the cards. It's as random as getting a deck out of a packet. You can tell if its pseudo because the cards in the game will be dealt instantly (local machine generated), online (where they use their hardware generator, radio frequencey mod or radioactive decay) there will be a delay as the server sends you cards. That's just not for security.

    Which gets me thinking more about the validity of simulations. They are useless if its pseudo random. I had to write my own importer to get data from the Australian National Uni quantum lab to ensure that I was using real random numbers.

    I'm just a guy trying to understand..
    Can't determine if this is sarcastic. If not, nothing in it is true.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  9. #22


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    My advice would be to use Google.. Which if you dont know simple things like this, you should of used it long ago.. LOL

  10. #23
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_fabulous View Post
    My advice would be to use Google
    99% of what you read on the Internet is false. Far higher percentage relating to gambling. Using Google as your source for information on gambling can lead you to disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    If you're playing 7x riffle shuffled decks on a table, IMO yeah. (min shuffles for random distribution)
    This does not apply to Blackjack for several reasons. The main reason is that Blackjack (absent unusual side bets or bonuses) has only ten unique cards, not 52. This makes an enormous difference in randomization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    But, if you're playing for pretend money on a computer it most likely won't because they are only using a pseudo random algorithm to generate the cards. It's as random as getting a deck out of a packet. You can tell if its pseudo because the cards in the game will be dealt instantly (local machine generated), online (where they use their hardware generator, radio frequencey mod or radioactive decay) there will be a delay as the server sends you cards. That's just not for security.
    1. Actually, hardware generation can now be faster than using a PRNG. Far faster as the Intel Ivy Bridge chip, found in newer PCs, has a built-in entropy-sourced hardware RNG. Look up RdRand.
    2. In any case, any delay would be unnoticeable compared to the normal Internet delay.
    3. Online casinos do not use hardware generators.
    4. Security has nothing to do with any of this.
    5. Even if everything related to randomness were ignored, the paragraph would still be completely irrelevant as the entire discussion is ridiculous, which is why this thread is in the disadvantage forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    Which gets me thinking more about the validity of simulations. They are useless if its pseudo random. I had to write my own importer to get data from the Australian National Uni quantum lab to ensure that I was using real random numbers.
    Completely false. Fortunately, or planes would be falling out of the sky, dams bursting, etc. Monte-Carlo techniques have successfully used PRNGs for decades in simulations involving vastly more complex studies than Blackjack. If they can be used by Oak Ridge, they can be used for Blackjack.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr_fabulous View Post
    Which if you dont know simple things like this, you should of used it long ago.. LOL
    You are off to a bad start using language like this here.
    Last edited by Norm; 02-19-2013 at 04:19 AM.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  11. #24


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    In 1992, Bayer and Diaconis showed that after seven random riffle shuffles of a deck of 52 cards, every configuration is nearly equally likely. Shuffling more than this does not significantly increase the "randomness"; shuffle less than this and the deck is "far" from random. That is widely accepted. Your idea is that one shuffle is random. It's not. Number of unique cards does not matter, its the number of total combinations that can be reached. They can only be reached via 7+.

    So its secure to have a face down card on a client PC when there is $1000 at stake??? It's much easier and secure to send it at the time of play, which they do. Online casino and security.. Nah, nothing to do with each other... LMAO

    "True" random numbers vs. pseudorandom numbers

    Main article: Pseudorandom number generator
    There are two principal methods used to generate random numbers. One measures some physical phenomenon that is expected to be random and then compensates for possible biases in the measurement process. The other uses computational algorithms that can produce long sequences of apparently random results, which are in fact completely determined by a shorter initial value, known as a seed or key. The latter type are often called pseudorandom number generators.

    A "random number generator" based solely on deterministic computation cannot be regarded as a "true" random number generator, since its output is inherently predictable. How to distinguish a "true" random number from the output of a pseudo-random number generator is a very difficult problem. However, carefully chosen pseudo-random number generators can be used instead of true random numbers in many applications. Rigorous statistical analysis of the output is often needed to have confidence in the algorithm.

    Rigorous statistical analysis isnt your little quad-core..
    Last edited by mr_fabulous; 02-19-2013 at 04:41 AM.

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_fabulous View Post
    My advice would be to use Google.. Which if you dont know simple things like this, you should of used it long ago.. LOL
    Wow, a newbie telling Norm about computing random numbers for blackjack. That is funny. When he figures out who Norm is he is going to feel very foolish.
    Last edited by Three; 02-19-2013 at 04:39 AM.

  13. #26
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Most everyone here knows full well about the Diaconis statement on seven riffles. I have stated why it is not relevant to Blackjack. Think about it. BTW, an interesting phenomenon is that it matters whether the first card of the riffle comes from the top or bottom half.

    Your links don’t work. But, it’s irrelevant as the difference between PRNGs and natural randomness is well understood here. I created my first simulation program in the 60s and gave a lecture on it at the Univ. of Penn. 46 years ago. I have a bit of background in this area. In fact, I was one of the editors of the articles that you tried to point to.

    I use the MarZam II generator which passes all the Diehard PRNG tests. It is certainly adequate for Blackjack simulation. In fact, overkill.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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