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Thread: Wong Out Only After Losing Effect?

  1. #1


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    Wong Out Only After Losing Effect?

    Hi all,

    Using Hi-Lo for simplicity's sake, what effect does wonging out only after losing the round have?

    For example, the count hits your exit point, say -1. You play a round and win the hand. You play another round at -1 and win again. The third round you lose your hand so you leave the table. This leaves you up 1 unit, a unit you wouldn't have if you left as soon as the count hit -1.

    Or is this just nonsense, as all hands played are negative expectation anyway? It's just something I thought of regarding making the wong out transition a bit smoother. Because people rarely leave after winning, believing in the "hot streak" or "flow of the cards" bullshit..

  2. #2
    Member lessj's Avatar
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    If you are playing at a disadvantage, it will cost you. Not to say that it isn’t worth it, but forcing yourself to play at negative expectation for the sake of longevity does cost a little (assuming min bet). CVCX should provide information on how this affects you over the long run.

  3. #3


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    Bushie, it would depend a lot upon how big a player you are "level of action" compared to the other players playing. If you are considered one of the bigger players, at that casino, also depending upon tolerance levels, the more effort that will be required by you to hide the fact. Let's say for example that you are not a small or average fish in the pond and go back to your question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushie View Post
    Using Hi-Lo for simplicity's sake, what effect does wonging out only after losing the round have?
    A lot would depend on the size of your bets rising/falling " size of spread", and how many times that took place earlier in the shoe before you reached the -1 point in time. Now if you are looked upon as just another small player, the less concern required that you will need for cover.
    Last edited by BoSox; 04-25-2018 at 05:01 AM.

  4. #4


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    If it's at the beginning of the shoe, I wait until I've hit my exit point AND I've lost two hands in a row.

    It's a mixed bag. Sometimes you get some positive variance and win those -EV hands. But then if you sit through a couple shoes betting min (or close to it) it looks stranger if you suddenly go big. Because of this, I prefer to white rabbit if there's many open tables and not even mess with the -EV hands.

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushie View Post
    Hi all,

    Using Hi-Lo for simplicity's sake, what effect does wonging out only after losing the round have?

    For example, the count hits your exit point, say -1. You play a round and win the hand. You play another round at -1 and win again. The third round you lose your hand so you leave the table. This leaves you up 1 unit, a unit you wouldn't have if you left as soon as the count hit -1.

    Or is this just nonsense, as all hands played are negative expectation anyway? It's just something I thought of regarding making the wong out transition a bit smoother. Because people rarely leave after winning, believing in the "hot streak" or "flow of the cards" bullshit..
    I think this is a very underused and valuable technique. On the occasion that I reached a departure point (likely a negative true count) but have one remaining bet to reconcile, then I will play until the bet loses or the departure point is removed. This affords me the opportunity to leverage any positive variance I may receive while holding my position in waiting for a better count.

    Likewise, a larger opening bet for cover purposes can also be "play until you lose" before changing your bet to correspond to your normal ramp. Again, you can extend the positive variance as long as the win streak is in effect.

    Yes, this adds to overall variance but it also provides a modicum of cover and often an improvement in actual session results.

    New counters implement their new skill with a rote bet ramp that is a certainty for disaster. They would be well advised to learn some bet techniques that provide cover and improve their overall results.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by RCJH View Post
    It's a mixed bag. Sometimes you get some positive variance and win those -EV hands. But then if you sit through a couple shoes betting min (or close to it) it looks stranger if you suddenly go big.
    Nice quote RCJH! I agree and when you do go big it stands out too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by RCJH View Post
    Because of this, I prefer to white rabbit if there's many open tables and not even mess with the -EV hands.
    So do I, and time is money, and better spent finding another game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    Likewise, a larger opening bet for cover purposes can also be "play until you lose" before changing your bet to correspond to your normal ramp. Again, you can extend the positive variance as long as the win streak is in effect.

    Yes, this adds to overall variance but it also provides a modicum of cover and often an improvement in actual session results.

    New counters implement their new skill with a rote bet ramp that is a certainty for disaster. They would be well advised to learn some bet techniques that provide cover and improve their overall results.
    Unfortunately, many, many new counters starting out do not have the luxury of implementing any type of cover, as their bankroll says otherwise.

  7. #7


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    A very modest cost in expectation, but worth it to appear like a normal gambler. If the count drops low enough you should just bounce despite the win streak that kept you there in the first place.

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