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Thread: W/L% (IBA) in CVCX

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    W/L% (IBA) in CVCX

    Hi Girls and Boys!

    What is the importance of this metric in Cvcx?
    Can anybody elaborate this for me?
    Is it important?
    Would it make any significant result by increasing it over one percent or higher?
    What kind of difference does it make?
    Cheers for any input

    All the best

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    Last edited by ferenc11; 04-25-2018 at 03:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferenc11 View Post
    What is the importance of this metric in Cvcx?
    Can anybody elaborate this for me?
    Basically W/L% is the return you will get on the total amount bet over time. When building an optimal ramp each data collection bin (TC or combination of TC's) is bet optimally based on advantage and variance (total variance if you are betting multiple spots). The issue is that while each individual EV and risk bin is bet optimally, as a group they are not necessarily bet optimally. W/L% allows you to put your ramp into a more overall optimal state. Usually, if any changes to the generated ramp would increase W/L%, that means betting the lower end of your ramp slightly less aggressively. If these are disadvantage bets EV goes up but if they are advantage bets EV goes down. The EV change for small advantage bets are usually negligible. The effect is almost entirely from their high frequency as the advantage and bet size doesn't change the EV per occurrence significantly.
    Quote Originally Posted by ferenc11 View Post
    Is it important?
    Yes and no. If you ignore it the stats you are relying on will get you what you want, but if you factor in W/L% without ignoring SCORE, win-rate in dollars and RoR you will probably be happier with how things go in the short run. Your results will be more based on how you do on your higher advantage bets. Personally, I will give up a little monetary EV for a higher W/L% if it doesn't adversely affect c-SCORE. More often it will increase c-SCORE because it lowers risk more than it lowers EV. Reduce those small bets too much is obviously not good, unless you are not betting anything. Usually more practical concerns govern any betting tweaks to the "optimal" generated ramp.
    Quote Originally Posted by ferenc11 View Post
    Would it make any significant result by increasing it over one percent or higher?
    What kind of difference does make it?
    Increases in W/L% need to be looked at in a broader perspective to answer that. Increases that don't affect or increase c-SCORE are favorable. If they increase in W/L% costs you EV and c-SCORE you might not want to do it. Try not to isolate one key stat. Look at the key stats as a group. While monetary win-rate is your goal, it doesn't give you a feel for risk. c-SCORE factors in risk. RoR is all about risk. W/L% is about your return on the total amount of money you choose to bet when you make a wager over time. Most people pay no attention to W/L%, but I think it adds something to managing your ramp to be optimal as a group, rather than a group of individually optimal bets.

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    Oh thanks Three! I knew I could count on you on this one! Big Cheers!
    Does this mean the mathematical advantage over the house in the long run (percentagewise)
    If i interpret it correctly...

    How much advantage do you guys prefer to apply? Half percent, one percent or more?



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    TBA, Total Bet Advantage is also used. That is the amount won as a percentage of all the money you put out including doubles and splits. IBA is just the money you put out initially on the two spots. My personal preference is IBA but some prefer TBA. But yes, you could call it the advantage you have on average over the house in the long run for the money you bet whether you use IBA or TBA. Obviously the two will differ some but both are correct from their stated perspective.
    Quote Originally Posted by ferenc11 View Post
    How much advantage do you guys prefer to apply? Half percent, one percent or more?
    I like 2% or more but you either take what you can get or you don't play. For BJ I get 1.25% to 1.5%, unless I am backcounting. But I am sure other systems don't do quite that well.

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    Awesome. Where can i find TBA in CVCX?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferenc11 View Post
    Awesome. Where can i find TBA in CVCX?
    Maybe someone else can answer this. Calling Doghand.
    Last edited by Three; 04-25-2018 at 06:36 PM.

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    TBA is not included in CVCX as it's not really useful. I can only think of one book, Uston's old book, that uses it as it ignores risk -- one of the most important aspects of advantage play. CVData displays both TBA and IBA. But, don't use TBA. Also, ignore Three's comments on his own system.
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    IBA is the player edge based on the original bet turnover of the first hand out of the shoe and is calculated this way so it is independent of the remaining cards. TBA is the player edge based on the player’s actual turnover which includes doubles and splits. For a typical game, say S17 and DAS, the ratio between the two is around 1.13. Although I don’t use the TBA figure in any calculations I do find it more representative of the actual cost of the game.
    Last edited by davethebuilder; 04-29-2018 at 03:39 PM.
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    So is it not your edge over house by spreading according to the count?

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    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    IBA is your edge based upon your original bet. TBA is your edge based on all money bet during the round. When you put a chip in the circle, you are committing yourself to possibly adding to that bet. Since playing correctly requires that you increase your bet at times during a hand, IBA is more useful when taking risk into account.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferenc11 View Post
    So is it not your edge over house by spreading according to the count?
    It is.
    Davethebuider is wrong.
    Norm is right.

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    The only respected book I can think of that used TBA is Uston's. But then Uston led a risky life.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

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    Yes, of course, player edge. I was referring to a BS player not an AP. Late at night here...apologies.
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