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Thread: Hi-Lo Clarification.

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    Hi-Lo Clarification.

    RE: 8 v. 6. Hi-Lo shows 8 double at 1+, but it says split 4's (das) at -5+. Thus, I assume that splits are more robust with DAS than DD, and one should always split 4s in lieu of doubling. Correct?

    RE: 16 v. A. Hi-Lo sez Surr. 16 within the range of -4 and 16. I assume you hit below -4, but stand at +16. Correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    RE: 8 v. 6. Hi-Lo shows 8 double at 1+, but it says split 4's (das) at -5+. Thus, I assume that splits are more robust with DAS than DD, and one should always split 4s in lieu of doubling. Correct?

    RE: 16 v. A. Hi-Lo sez Surr. 16 within the range of -4 and 16. I assume you hit below -4, but stand at +16. Correct?
    Excepting very high TC's, always split 44v5,6 when das is in rule set.

    My normal rule sets for nit allow surrender via Ace. Assume you mean late surrender on ace, make your life easy, take insurance at plus 16, or any tc where called for, then surrender everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Excepting very high TC's, always split 44v5,6 when das is in rule set.

    My normal rule sets for nit allow surrender via Ace. Assume you mean late surrender on ace, make your life easy, take insurance at plus 16, or any tc where called for, then surrender everything.
    Do we split 4's against 5,6 in a DD game where DAS is only for 9-11? This rule eliminates soft doubling. It's a question I have been meaning to ask for some time since the game is doubling only 9-11 and does not allow doubling 4,4 against 5,6 period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Do we split 4's against 5,6 in a DD game where DAS is only for 9-11? This rule eliminates soft doubling. It's a question I have been meaning to ask for some time since the game is doubling only 9-11 and does not allow doubling 4,4 against 5,6 period.
    I've never played the game restricted double that you mentioned. My intuition tells me to still split. I lose the soft double, plus the possible I18 doubles after split, but still have the Basic 9,10,11 doubles that can occur after split.

    Further, the split allows the potential of an improved hand over a straight hit, which ultimately, is our goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Do we split 4's against 5,6 in a DD game where DAS is only for 9-11? This rule eliminates soft doubling. It's a question I have been meaning to ask for some time since the game is doubling only 9-11 and does not allow doubling 4,4 against 5,6 period.
    Yes, you split anyway.

    Don

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    RE: 16 v. A. Hi-Lo sez Surr. 16 within the range of -4 and 16. I assume you hit below -4, but stand at +16. Correct?
    The 16 v A hit or stand decision depends on whether or not the dealer hits soft seventeen. If the dealer hits on soft seventeen you would stay this hand at +3.

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    My bad for not differentiating between H17 and S17. It's just that H17 seems to be the new normal

    Which begs the question: What's the cost of using H17 rules against the rare S17 game that one may encounter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    My bad for not differentiating between H17 and S17. It's just that H17 seems to be the new normal

    Which begs the question: What's the cost of using H17 rules against the rare S17 game that one may encounter?
    Give or take, an additional cost of .21

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    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Which begs the question: What's the cost of using H17 rules against the rare S17 game that one may encounter?
    See 4.11 in Blackjack In Color, at the bottom/left of this page.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    My bad for not differentiating between H17 and S17. It's just that H17 seems to be the new normal
    I know, right? It used to be everything was S17, and you learned what to do IF you played H17. Now even Blackjack apprenticeship teaches H17, with a what to change for S17.

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    Senior Member Tarzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCJH View Post
    I know, right? It used to be everything was S17, and you learned what to do IF you played H17. Now even Blackjack apprenticeship teaches H17, with a what to change for S17.
    It's easier for me to think of S17 to H17 than the other way around. There are approximately 16 adjustments to convert from S17 to H17, and if you played S17 indices against a H17 game, you would end up playing in a slightly more risk averse manner, with the index very close in most instances. The three hands where it goes way off from one another are 15vsA, 16vsA, and A,7vs6. I have described this as being able to feed a dog catfood, but not being able to feed a cat dogfood. You can get away with using S17 indices in a H17 game (aside from those three hands noted), but won't fare as well using H17 indices in a S17 game.

    I was playing blackjack long before there was such a thing as H17, so with the S17 drilled into me, I'm converting sixteen total hands, focusing mostly on the three that are drastically different. It's difficult for me to envision learning it the other way around, although I must assume that with the majority of games being H17 anymore many likely learn H17 indices first and convert in the other direction!
    Last edited by Tarzan; 04-14-2018 at 12:09 PM.

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    Senior Member Tarzan's Avatar
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    20180414_152934 - Copy (705x800).jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    RE: 8 v. 6. Hi-Lo shows 8 double at 1+, but it says split 4's (das) at -5+. Thus, I assume that splits are more robust with DAS than DD, and one should always split 4s in lieu of doubling. Correct?
    4,4vs6 is interesting because there's actually three potential optimal playing decisions based on deck composition. The basic strategy is to split, but what if you have (6,7) removed, surplus (A), more {2-5} removed than {T}? There is such a thing as choosing to double this hand, requiring an unusual deck composition, that in the long haul is not actually all that big a difference. In the attached photo, note the green zone, the red zone, and the purple zone. If I am in a position well into that green zone, such as 6-10-0, more (6,7) have been removed than (8,9) and there are surplus (A), I have most certainly achieved the parameters for doubling this hand over splitting with a max bet out.

    Note where the three zones meet up on the attached chart. One cell out from that exact point in any direction is less than .001 in EV. The farther into any one zone you are in from this composition dependent way of looking at it, the more value this playing decision has. It's possible to have an optimal decision to double over splitting this hand. Along with that, you can be at -1, -2 range and it's practically a coin flip between splitting and hitting, once again a difference in EV of .001ish or whatever it is before finally hitting -3 range or more for the index to hit, with key cards pushing it in one direction or another from that coin flip of a baseline in an even distribution.

    I'm not saying bother with all this... You might want to go with always split with an index -4 hit or whatever Hi-Lo dictates, but it is actually possible to encounter a situation that would call for doubling over splitting on this hand as the optimal playing decision.
    Last edited by Tarzan; 04-14-2018 at 02:33 PM.

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