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Thread: Zen Count

  1. #1
    Senior Member dalmatian's Avatar
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    Zen Count

    It's been many months going on a year of counting for me. I think it's finally time to upgrade a count system and start playing with (slightly) more power. I chose ZEN because it seems to be a good middle ground between a beginning system and an advanced one. I do not have a copy of "Blackbelt in Blackjack" anymore so I wanted to make sure I am correctly applying this system:

    Keep a running count (2,3, and 7 are +1; 4,5, and 6 are +2; 10 and face are -2; ace is -1). Divide running count by remaining whole decks to obtain true Zen count. Now, since tens are counted as twice the normal amount in the running count it is my understanding that every Zen true count gives the player half the advantage that a hi low true count would give. So, very roughly, +1 Zen true count is +0.25% advantage whereas +1 hi low true count is +0.5%. Therefore, I will have to adjust my betting spread accordingly.

    I'm a little confused because I vaguely remember Snyder did not divide by remaining whole decks but remaining "fraction" decks and this threw off the index numbers. I am assuming that CVCX generated index numbers follow the standard "whole deck" converted true count and not fractional decks. Just to be sure, do these Zen index numbers seem right for a double deck game where true was determined by dividing by WHOLE decks remaining?:


    PLAYER DEALER ZEN INDEX
    11 vs A +1
    10 vs 10 +7
    10 vs A +5
    9 vs 2 +2
    9 vs 7 +7
    8 vs 6 +4
    8 vs 5 +7

    My assumption is that they do because they seem to be, more or less, double the hi low index.

    Any advice on zen count (pros/cons) keeping in mind I am moving from hi low? Thanks in advance.

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    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    UBZ I I is good for DD too.

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    Member lessj's Avatar
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    With Zen, you'll be dividing by 4*(Decks Remaining) for TC conversion. In SD/DD games where Zen gives you a huge power increase compared to hi-lo, quarter-deck estimation is important for power, and TC conversion. Let me explain.

    Because you obtain TC by dividing by 4*(Decks Remaining), you'll want to estimate number of decks remaining in quarter-decks. Think in terms of fourths. If 3/4 of a deck have been dealt in a DD game, 5/4 of a deck remains. So, the denominator in your TC conversion will be ( ( 5 / 4 ) * 4 ) = 5. So, just divide RC / 5 to obtain your TC in that scenario. Simply put, divide your RC by number of quarter decks remaining to obtain TC.

    Also, those indices indeed look to be for whole deck division, not quarter deck.

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    Don't waste time with the "true edge" method. You want to use the TC method obtaining a count per deck. Your values are in the ballpark. Here is your starting point.

    http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/...nt_Indices.htm

    With pitch games you want to be estimating by quarters decks in the discards but you want to be calculating a TC per deck. Basically just play like Hilo substituting the Zen tags and indices.

    Bottom line is you will be dividing the discards by WHOLE decks but you want quarter deck resolution for that TC divisor for DD and single deck.
    Last edited by jimmybond007; 03-17-2018 at 05:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    UBZ I I is good for DD too.
    Hi, Do you have indices for UB2? My brain is slow for 1/4 deck calculation at table. Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatian View Post
    My assumption is that they do because they seem to be, more or less, double the hi low index.

    Any advice on zen count (pros/cons) keeping in mind I am moving from hi low? Thanks in advance.
    If you use half deck conversion instead of one deck conversion, then the index will roughly stay the same. In other words, for 6 deck game, initially you divide RC by 12 because six decks equals twelve half-decks.

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    Dalmatian,

    Hopefully someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think each TC with Zen is worth about .33%.

    As far as indices go, I believe you’re confusing True Edge indices vs True Count indices. The index plays you have listed are fine. Just avoid the True Edge method. Just like Hi Lo, you’ll divide by how many decks remaining to arrive at your True Count. How accurately you divide is totally up to you. Whether you choose to divide to by whole decks, half decks, or quarter decks; that’s your choice. Just like the illustrious 18, your biggest gain in EV will be from estimating half decks vs full decks. Similar to how the Il18 captures 90% of the EV gained from index plays. But any gains beyond that is minimal. The difference in EV gained from estimating quarter decks vs half decks won’t be much.

    As far as your ramp goes, it’ll be a little different than Hi Lo. Many of the sims you’ll run on CVCX will suggest maxing out around TC+9. It also depends on the type of game or the size of your spread too. Some sims will suggest maxing out a bit sooner, and some a bit later.
    Last edited by Ryemo; 03-17-2018 at 08:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryemo View Post
    "i think each tc with zen is worth about .33%."
    yes.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    Dalmatian, i would recommend that you change Hi Lo to Double Halves. Indexes for this system you will find in my old posts on the forum. Great universal system for all conditions of the game.
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatian View Post
    "is there a reason this list is truncated?"
    You need to re-state this ~ to be understandable.


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    Quote Originally Posted by lessj View Post
    With Zen, you'll be dividing by 4*(Decks Remaining) for TC conversion.
    This is the "Snyder's Folly" version of Zen Count. It was a miserable failure and the low point in Snyder's career. Use the other version. What happens is you lose the ability to fine tune. All data is compressed in 1/4 the space making the same accuracy require division to 2 extra decimal places. If you want your index to be 1.28 instead of 5 then go for it. If anything, you want to stretch out the data so without using decimals you can get better accuracy. CVCX will tell you your advantages. You don't need to calculate them at the table for each hand. It is faster to memorize a ramp based on advantage info and variance than use more complicated math to guess at a bet based solely of advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    You need to re-state this ~ to be understandable.
    I think it's pretty clear. He is implying that 80 does not represent the FULL set of indices and that there are more. I have no idea how many there ought to be, but his statement is surely understandable, no?

    Don

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    I understood just fine.

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