Different styles of play and GWAE guest, Card Counter “Joe”

**Ryemo** · 03-15-2018, 09:09 PM

Since there was recently a thread about cover and a mini-feud between Moses and I in the Las Vegas thread, I thought this might be an appropriate place for this GWAE episode.

Card counter “Joe” is a friend of mine who I’ve looked up to since meeting him. I’ve always liked his style of play and I can say it has probably helped influence my own style too.

Colin Jones also appears in this episode as well. I had the opportunity to hang out with both of them quite a bit recently in Vegas while they were doing their boot camp. The topic of cover and aggressiveness came up a few times while trying to weigh out the pros and cons between different styles of play. Card counter “Joe” and Colin discuss a little bit of that in this episode.

Maybe that’s a good topic we can start here. Do you align yourself more with someone who plays very conservatively (for longevity purposes), or aggressively like Joe, or somewhere in between? If so, why?

https://youtu.be/qDR3EOs5o7I

**mcallister3200** · 03-15-2018, 10:00 PM

I was at the same table as him once In what must have been his first year. I think when it shot up I spread from 10-90, him 10-2x300 (double deck). I moved on other side of pit and definitely wasn’t leaving until he got the tap or left.

Id say I play somewhere in between dont really use much cover but I will cap my top bet, I guess I just found a point where you’re comfortable with the EV/time/heat/risk matrix for what you want out of it and settle in there. I also kinda like the idea of having comparable levels of volatility between games, you can find 500 max tables everywhere but a good number of states with nothing higher, and 2x400 is also right around the max level for practical avoidance of CTR, I choose not to CTR in a casino so that can unfortunately occasionally dictate a session length.

**RCJH** · 03-16-2018, 12:05 AM

Home or away? For me, I play conservatively places I plan on returning to more than once a month. If I'm somewhere further away, and not likely to return ever, I play much more aggressively. Everything falls somewhere in between. It's the same for cover. I use more at home, sometimes none when I'm away. I definitely play more aggressively the last day of a trip.

It's a good topic. I often have different bet ramps for different casinos.

On that note, however, I got burned from a place I played conservatively. I wonder if it was all for naught. I gave away EV for nothing; the end result was the same. This was a casino I wanted to milk my entire career.

**Ryemo** · 03-16-2018, 06:37 AM

Good response, Mcallister. That’s a good approach.

You’re right about many states with low table max. I know that’s a problem Yoshi has ran into. He’s typically playing up to 2x1,000 (or higher) but many times he’s capped by table max with a $500 limit. I imagine this has to increase variance, unless you can hit N-Zero multiple times on all those spreads, right?

**Ryemo** · 03-16-2018, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by RCJH

On that note, however, I got burned from a place I played conservatively. I wonder if it was all for naught. I gave away EV for nothing; the end result was the same. This was a casino I wanted to milk my entire career.

This is exactly one of the reasons I’ve adopted more of an aggressive style lately. Many places will back you off even if you play very “politely.” So if that’s going to be the end result anyway, why not just go the throat?

**Freightman** · 03-16-2018, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ryemo

This is exactly one of the reasons I’ve adopted more of an aggressive style lately. Many places will back you off even if you play very “politely.” So if that’s going to be the end result anyway, why not just go the throat?

Ryemo
I used to play afternoons locally, about 70-80 hours a month. I milked it for a very long time. I now play 0 hours per month locally.

I now play about 20 hours a month. I'm more aggressive, not outrageous - my exposure is less. Most if my places are on a KInd if a regular rotation. To go full bore bore, I would have lost them already. Granted, I'm on thin ice in a few spots, but I still play. Accounting for e lenses etc., I'm still better off doing it the way I'm doing it. This us because my next expense jump, as in airfare everywhere, is then taken into account.

If you can drive everywhere, granted there are lodging and food bills. You can afford to take it a little tamer. With air and car rental tacked on, it makes a difference.

In other words, everyone needs to analyze their own individual cost benefit situation, and make their own decision.

**Ryemo** · 03-16-2018, 07:09 AM

Makes perfect sense. Good point, Freightman.

**Stealth** · 03-16-2018, 09:50 AM

While I did enjoy the interview with Joe, it, as usual, should not be considered as one size fits all. Unless you are willing to endure countless windshield hours, peeing in your car, sleeping in bug infested hotels and little family or recreational time then I suggest you consider a different approach than Joe's. Full time travel is a bitch. Granted his financial reward is handsome but I don't know when he has time to enjoy it. I believe money is the resource that allows us to enjoy our lives, not the end objective.

How aggressive you can be is a function of your resources and your end objective. I prefer to think of how much money can I win "in the long term" as a better goal than being backed off from all the casinos in America.

It is true that you can get backed off with small bet red chips and then you should question why didn't I just fire away. The first answer is to fire away "within you bankroll tolerances". The next answer is fire away within casino tolerances. If at one of your local stores you want to milk, then lower spreads that fit their tolerances may be your ticket. If out of town, then firing away at bankroll/table max may be the thing. I will add that after several back offs AP's tend to be more conservative, often for the wrong reasons.

Joe's was a very articulate player whom I expect is very technically qualified. I did enjoy his interview and his sharing of his story.

Perhaps, we all need a boost toward more aggressive but I suggest you evaluate your own goals before blindly adapting such. And as they say, if the shoe fits wear it.

**Gronbog** · 03-16-2018, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Stealth

I believe money is the resource that allows us to enjoy our lives, not the end objective.

This ^^^^

**Ryemo** · 03-16-2018, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Gronbog

This ^^^^

Maybe I can add a little insight regarding “Joe’s” situation. He does take a lot of time off as well and definitely enjoys himself. It’s not all work and no play. I’ve seen many photos he’s posted from exotic destinations. It looks like he’s really enjoying himself along the way too. Being a professional high stakes gambler with no set schedule has afforded him that kind of lifestyle. I find it really interesting.

**Gronbog** · 03-16-2018, 11:21 AM

I'm happy that's the case with Joe. My comment wasn't really directed at him since I have not (yet) listened to the podcast. It was more of a general agreement with Stealth on this aspect of the philosophy of living.

**Stealth** · 03-16-2018, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Ryemo

He does take a lot of time off as well and definitely enjoys himself.

He certainly did not make this clear in his interview. He was asked that question. Bed bugs, peeing in my car and lots of driving is not my idea of any lifestyle I would ever had aspired to.

**Ryemo** · 03-16-2018, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Stealth

He certainly did not make this clear in his interview. He was asked that question. Bed bugs, peeing in my car and lots of driving is not my idea of any lifestyle I would ever had aspired to.

Yeah, you’re right. It wasn’t clear in that episode. But I’m Facebook friends with him and I can say he spends a good amount of time traveling for entertainment purposes. He’s shared a lot of really awesome photos depicting those travels. He’s an excellent photographer btw.