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Thread: Side-Counting Sevens: ...

  1. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    10% according to CV Data TC distribution charts.
    So this decision
    may come up once times every 200 hands.
    I do not comprehend how 10% = 1/200. Please enlighten me.

  2. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Typically, Hi Lo users do not want to side count. Simply switch the tag values of the 2 and 7 to get more mileage out of the pitch games.
    moses is your method universal? So in a system with tag values of the 2 and 7 being same what can you do to increase performance?

  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    When I was crunching the digits it became evident to me that it is powerful
    in SD and great in DD, but rapidly loses power in a shoe game, although I
    would (perhaps) use it in a Four Decker, though I haven't seen same in 4ever.

    If you are not allowed to double down on any two cards the value of side counting 7's shrinks from 19 hands to 3. No?

    Two card matchups for 14v10, 15,16v9 is roughly 3.5% combined for all hands. Three plus card matchups is slightly more. However, the decision for this situation will occur in higher TC scenarios around 10% according to CV Data TC distribution charts. So this decision may come up once times every 200 hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    I do not comprehend how 10% = 1/200. Please enlighten me.
    10% of the time is where a decision to hit or stand is going to happen on those 3 hand matchups. 90% of the time you will be hitting without giving it a 2nd thought. Two card hands will occur 3.5%. Bump 3+ card hands up to 5% on average. So this matchup will occur 5 times out of 100 hands or 50 times out of 1,000. However, since you making a decision roughly 10% of the time to hit or stand, it would be 5 times out of 1,000 or 1 in every 200 for these 3 matchups.

    Pen in a huge consideration as premium hands are shuffled away without deep pen.

    Don S will probably say I'm being overly generous even at that.
    Last edited by moses; 02-27-2018 at 10:30 AM.

  4. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousplayer View Post
    moses is your method universal? So in a system with tag values of the 2 and 7 being same what can you do to increase performance?
    I'm not sure I understand your question SP. I simply changed the tags 2=0 7=1, generated my indices on CV Data, and compared SCORE.

    Now, within that structure, there are other things you can do to increase SCORE. I took my cue from Flash regarding the importance of the 7 and how it weighs more towards PE consideration than the 2 for pitch games.

    The best way to increase SCORE and keep it simple is to add .5 to the 5 and -.5 to the 9. For additional improvements, although not as vital is drop the Ace for PE and move it for IC.

    Quote Originally Posted by seriousplayer View Post
    To further clarify take for example the Zen Count the tags for 2=1, 7=1. From your method I can't switch the two values to improve performance because both tag values are the same. How will I go about improving PE from using your method?
    Note; I added to my previous post. I thought we were talking about Hi Lo. But for Zen, I'd say add .5 to 7 to make it 1.5 and take away .5 from the 2 and make it .5.
    Last edited by moses; 02-27-2018 at 10:33 AM.

  5. #18


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    These are adjustments for Playing Purposes only;
    The E.O.R. of a seven is like that of a deuce ~ weak.
    Do you advocate these side counts for multi-deck games or only for pitch?

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    I'm not sure I understand your question SP. I simply changed the tags 2=0 7=1, generated my indices on CV Data, and compared SCORE.

    Now, within that structure, there are other things you can do to increase SCORE. I took my cue from Flash regarding the importance of the 7 and how it weighs more towards PE consideration than the 2 for pitch games.
    To further clarify take for example the Zen Count the tags for 2=1, 7=1. From your method I can't switch the two values to improve performance because both tag values are the same. How will I go about improving PE from using your method?

  7. #20


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    Can CVData be used to determine the distribution of excess/deficit of a sidecount natively? Similar to TC/RC distribution? Or would you have to create an entire strategy and divide by quarter decks?

    IE 15% 2 less than expected, 23% 1 less than expected, 35% exact expected, 22% 1 more than expected

  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Flash's comments about the 7 importance are for side counting it. It is not important in the main count, relatively speaking. It often acts as a strong high card and also often acts as a strong low card for different playing decisions. That is why you need to side count it. So you can weight it properly for every playing decision it acts as a strong high or low card.
    For "today's" game it's simply counterproductive. As Don S as told me many time regarding insurance. It doesn't have to be perfect due to the infrequency. The same brainpower it takes to side count a 7, you could column count the 6-9s. T3, bare in mind, we are speaking to 104 cards as opposed to your expertise level at 312 and up.

    T3. If you compare sim's for SD and DD you will see it's very importance to the main count. Think about it. It's fairly easy to see what the Hi Opt II author was doing. Creating a need for the shoe game because the pitch game was dead for this system.

    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Here is the original chart I posted from Norm's book. www.qfit.com/book/SuperSCORE.htm. It's easier to read. A closer look suggests Wong Halves runs very close to Hi Opt II but at surpasses it at deeper pen on pitch games. However, you don't have to side count count with Wong Halves. If you added Perfect Insurance to Wong Halves it would blow the friggin doors off Hi Opt II.
    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    If you think it isn't in other games you are mistaken.
    From what I've read, I don't think it is nearly as intense. I figure you made the proper adjustment to streamline and maximize your return for time invested. No?

    Spread limitations and heat actually appear even worse in most places than here for pitch. I've never seen someone get surrounded and have their chips shoved forward by casino personell. It's going to be difficult for an out of towner to come in and be able to thump them here because they don't know where to find a good game or how to react the surroundings if they do find one. The art form is a game of people played with cards and that takes time. In short, their perception of you outweighs your reality of what exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gramazeka View Post
    Thank you for posting this article Mr. Gramazeka. The pitch game has changed a wee bit, perhaps since the time the article was written.

    Mr. Harris writes; Counting the ‘9’ as a negative card has a detrimental effect on insurance and hard-12 decisions, while it improves the efficiency of hard 14, 15 and 16 decisions. After constructing a playing efficiency calculator along the lines described in Griffin, it was simple to see that while the net effect on the hard standing decisions was neutral, the gain in insurance by not counting the nine was substantial. This effect became even more pronounced when a non-flat betting spread is used.

    True: However, the root of today's game, with rules changes, pen reduction, and spread limitations, fall within those hard 14,15,16 decisions.Therefore, one must change the tag values in Wong Halves for the single and double deck games. Spread limits reduce the importance of Insurance. Prefererential shuffling nearly eliminates the detrimental effect of the 9 for hard 12 decisions. Raising the large bet requirement slightly to correlate with the IC index reduces pit scrutiny and those pesky 12 vs 2,3 situations with more money bet. Dropping the 12vs5,6 and adding 13v4 and 14vs 2,3 takes the pressure off the dealer plus offers a slight increase in SCORE.

    AOII gives the 6 a higher tag value. Thus the need to side count the 7 in Hi Opt II is eliminated. As Tarzan pointed out, exchanging the tag of the 3 and the 7 in Wong Halves greatly increases SCORE for pitch games. However, dropping the 2 in Wong Halves and tag the 7 at 1 provides an even easier count and even better SCORE for single deck. Dropping and/or moving the Ace will improve PE and IC when those situations occur. This procedure is done on your fingers as opposed to in your mind. But it's not as high a necessity item for playing decisions as it is for insurance decisions. Especially with a large bet out.

    IF one is going to go to all the trouble of side counts required in HI Opt II, then you may as well learn to column count for pitch games. Then you know exactly what is played and more importantly, exactly still remains. However, neither is of much use without significant pen to seeing the 35th card in single deck and 70th in double deck.

    Mr. G this serves primarily as notes to myself and anyone who cares to read. Your input is welcomed and one which I place a high value.
    Last edited by moses; 02-27-2018 at 10:34 AM.

  9. #22
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seriousplayer View Post
    For Hi-lo users side counting sevens the improvement for SCORE to over 5% in a six deck game. I would recommend for Hi-lo users who don't want to move to a level 2 count to side sevens to improve performance in BC and IC. Changing the insurance index would improve your PE performance. Side counting sevens would bring down the insurance index to +2 instead of +3 using Hi-lo.
    I use modified Hi Lo without ST.

    Side count 7 (+0.5 )and 9 (-0.5 ) . Indices same Hi Lo.

    This count = EBJ 2 = RPC.
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  10. #23


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    I think this is a good time to revisit tokes and drinking - I have found that they buy you not only longevity but sometimes complete dismissal - which means your plays not only dont raise suspicion but they ARENT UNDER SUSPICION - now the toking thing I think is best to couch in the mysterious flow of luck and karma - when things were going against me I would bet more for the dealer always invoking changing either the flow, luck or (and especially) the karma - it gives off the impression that you are deeply superstitious to such a degree that you are willing to invest money in your beliefs - then you can split tens all night.
    The drinking I have learned my lesson on - from listening to podcasts with romes and others I have found that some people can have a beer or two and be fine - I have heard from other podcasts that security dont really have different straws for alcoholic or non alcoholic drinks and I think the eye is probably more concerned with play than act - but I also think in most places that arent high end its a function of paranoia and narcissism to think there is someone sitting there - with a bead of sweat running down their face just staring at the screen keeping the count and just waiting to pounce on you for your first strategy deviations (having worked security inlcuding surveillance I can tell you they are probably on their phones or zoning the fuck out)
    BUT
    drinking (or appearing to) can prevent the pit from making a call to surveillance to get them off of youtube and to your skills check - but here's the thing - its a BAD IDEA to drink - even if you are an experienced drinker - especially if you have to be there for awhile - so I would get a vodka tonic - take it with me while pretending to be on the phone (whenever you are on the phone - everything else you do just gets ignored - believe me) dump it out - fill it with water and then ACT progressively more drunk -this combined with superstitious dealer toking will buy you the longevity - that sitting there like anti social nerd never will

  11. #24
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    I don't always side count 7s, but when I do, I drink heavily. They become a bit difficult around the time I also lose track of how many drinks I've had. I've never actually counted them while sober lol.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

  12. #25


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    Jesus bubbles, just don't drink 7 & 7's. Can you imagine the confusion?

  13. #26
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpikeBJ View Post
    Jesus bubbles, just don't drink 7 & 7's. Can you imagine the confusion?
    But I don't know of any other drink more quintessential for drunken 7s counting than that. :3

    Oh oops! I somehow was looking at old posts. Didn't mean to bump. I thought it was new.

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    Last edited by Bubbles; 07-28-2018 at 07:25 AM.

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