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Thread: Please help me verify my count and plan is solid

  1. #1
    Junior Member The Buzzard's Avatar
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    Please help me verify my count and plan is solid

    Hi, I am about to put in some time perfecting the Zen count and want to make sure I have the right numbers and strategies in place before I commit a lot to memory.
    I have what I believe is a good game available finally. It is a 6 decker, S17, surrender, and best of all, a lot of dealers deal right down to the last deck. Additionally there are a lot of low buy in tables with even a few 5$ tables sprinkled in.
    I can wong in and out aggressively here and also backcount to my hearts content, many times two tables at once.
    I was hoping someone could review my plan and make any suggestions, corrections on any facet of the strategy and tell me If something looks off.
    My roll is about $5,000 replenishable as I have a part time job. I will be using 1 deck true count conversion.

    I have come up with this spread TRUE <0, 5$ 0,10 2,20 3,40 4,75 5,100 6,125


    These are my index plays:
    True 1 12v4 11vA A,7 v2

    2 9v2 A,8 v5 or 6 A,6 v2

    3 12v3

    4 8v6 9,9v7 99vA 77v8 44 v4

    5 10vA A8v4

    6 12v2 15v10

    7 10v10 9v7 8v5 a8v3

    8 16v9


    Split 10,10 vs 5,6 at true 10,9


    Also 12v6 12v5 and 13v2 are -1,-2, -2 respectively

    I will surrender what I call the Big Three: 15v9 , 15vA, and 14 v10 at true count 4 also 77v10

    Surrender the little three: 16v8, 14v9, and 14vA at true count 8

    Also I see 15v10, 16v9, and 88 v 10 are all at true count 0. This means at a negative count, I will not be making my usual surrender play for these two stiffs?

    Insurance at 5

    I am sure with a roll this small I am running a risky proposition but I am wiling to accept a scary ror here before I hopefully double this roll once or twice.

    Thanks for any help!

    Buzzard
    Last edited by The Buzzard; 02-11-2018 at 03:58 PM.

  2. #2


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    Complete ZEN Count indices are available at Snyder's virtually defunct website.

    See:

    http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/Zen_Count_Indices.htm

    I have my own, simulation-generated. Risk-Averse, rather than profit-maximizing.

    When I gave up my lucrative profession to live the crazy life of a full-time Pro

    Card Counter (in 1992) I used the Zen Count exclusively, hence my online handle.

    I moved to Hi-Opt II for its greater power around 1998.

    If you have any questions, you may feel free to contact me.

  3. #3


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post

    Complete ZEN Count indices are available at Snyder's virtually defunct website.

    See:

    http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/Zen_Count_Indices.htm

    I have my own, simulation-generated. Risk-Averse, rather than profit-maximizing.

    When I gave up my lucrative profession to live the crazy life of a full-time Pro

    Card Counter (in 1992) I used the Zen Count exclusively, hence my online handle.

    I moved to Hi-Opt II for its greater power around 1998.

    If you have any questions, you may feel free to contact me.
    My suggestion to you is use CVDATA to generate risk adverse indices for the Zen count because you are not going to find full sets of Zen indices. Everywhere I looked there are some missing indices for the Zen count even in Casino Verite.

  4. #4


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    Seriousplayer is correct, it is difficult to find zen indices anywhere, so you have to generate your own.

    You will have a good advantage at TC3; I'd bet a lot bigger there.

    Also, since you have surrender, learn more surrender indices than you've noted. You can bet a little bigger with surrender. I go to a super max bet on surrender games when the majority of my surrender indices are in play.

  5. #5


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    Snyder's list is a good start but as stated above... you should generate your own. If you ever play any pitch games the numbers will change slightly from the Snyder list, especially on the stiff hands in negative counts... keep in mind a level 2 count benefits from LOTS of indices, try to memorize quite a few. You will notice that Zen has a BC slightly lower than HiLo, but a much better PE.
    Last edited by jimmybond007; 02-11-2018 at 09:17 PM.

  6. #6


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by The Buzzard View Post
    Hi, I am about to put in some time perfecting the Zen count and want to make sure I have the right numbers and strategies in place before I commit a lot to memory.
    I have what I believe is a good game available finally. It is a 6 decker, S17, surrender, and best of all, a lot of dealers deal right down to the last deck. Additionally there are a lot of low buy in tables with even a few 5$ tables sprinkled in.
    I can wong in and out aggressively here and also backcount to my hearts content, many times two tables at once.
    I was hoping someone could review my plan and make any suggestions, corrections on any facet of the strategy and tell me If something looks off.
    My roll is about $5,000 replenishable as I have a part time job. I will be using 1 deck true count conversion.

    I have come up with this spread TRUE <0, 5$ 0,10 2,20 3,40 4,75 5,100 6,125

    Buzzard
    Your spread suits Hi Lo 1 deck true count conversion or Zen half deck true count conversion.

    For Zen one deck true count conversion, I would recommend the following spread, assuming you are shooting for one Kelly RoR with $5,000 bankroll:

    TC Bet
    neg $5
    0 $5
    +2 $20
    +4 $40
    +6 $60
    +8 $80
    +10 $100
    +12 $125 (not recommended, you would show 25 to 1 spread. Actually I would bet $90 at TC +10. Just to avoid black action or trigger 20 to 1 spread alert.)

    Also, your playing indexes are fine.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    +12 $125 (not recommended, you would show 25 to 1 spread. Actually I would bet $90 at TC +10. Just to avoid black action or trigger 20 to 1 spread alert.)
    Seconded.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Buzzard View Post
    I can wong in and out aggressively here and also backcount to my hearts content, many times two tables at once.
    If you can wong in/out and back count with impunity why ever play at a disadvantage?
    With all the wonging and backcounting you wouldn't need much of a spread at all.

    I like:

    <1: Wong out
    1-4: 2x25
    5+: 2x50

    Puts u right smack at 1 Kelly for a $5k roll. You don't have to deal with betting red's(Except for insurance), though you'll get some red's and smaller chip's from surrenders.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    Your spread suits Hi Lo 1 deck true count conversion or Zen half deck true count conversion.

    For Zen one deck true count conversion, I would recommend the following spread, assuming you are shooting for one Kelly RoR with $5,000 bankroll:

    TC Bet
    neg $5
    0 $5
    +2 $20
    +4 $40
    +6 $60
    +8 $80
    +10 $100
    +12 $125 (not recommended, you would show 25 to 1 spread. Actually I would bet $90 at TC +10. Just to avoid black action or trigger 20 to 1 spread alert.)

    Also, your playing indexes are fine.
    Max at TC +12!? Even with Zen waiting for a count that high you basically nerf your spread. Depends on game but max needs to be out much sooner, around TC6 is more appropriate.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmybond007 View Post
    Max at TC +12!? Even with Zen waiting for a count that high you basically nerf your spread. Depends on game but max needs to be out much sooner, around TC6 is more appropriate.
    I dunno looks pretty accurate according to CVCX

    d83901cb46548db70611262b73847554.jpg


    And thats without wonging.

    With wonging:

    63892b62e160caf393808f6d4f3fa1cd.jpg

  10. #10


    Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmybond007 View Post
    Max at TC +12!? Even with Zen waiting for a count that high you basically nerf your spread. Depends on game but max needs to be out much sooner, around TC6 is more appropriate.
    That is equivalent to TC +6 for Hi-Lo. How often does it happen for Hi-Lo players? I would say quite a lot. This assumes one Kelly betting. If he wants to take higher risk, he could have max bet coming out sooner.

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