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Thread: Is it really worth it?

  1. #1


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    Is it really worth it?

    Spending countless mind-numbingly boring hours doing repetitive mental calculations, often being in the company of less than desirable and obnoxious individuals and drunks, seeing the tragic state of degenerate gambling addicts throw their life savings away, hearing the same music playlist for the 4th time in an hour, constant anxiety about cover and whether or not the tap on the shoulder is coming today or tomorrow, wondering if theres better things to do with your limited time etc etc.

    So I ask long term APs; if you could turn back time to the point where you decided to commit to counting as a career, would you still choose to do it? Or would you have done something else?

    I've been reading a few memoirs of prominent APs who did the circuit in the 80's, and although they are now affluent and lead priviledged lives, they often express a level of regret for choosing the path that they did and the time they spent in casinos, which for a lot of us I presume, aren't places we particularly like or enjoy going to.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    APing is a hobby for me, not a career. In January, I only put in 65 hours. I find it fun. The smoke use to bother me less than it does now. Sometimes the degens are sad, but I find most of the drunks fun. People come to have a good time. I am right there with them. They annoy me if they want to join my high count. It used to bother me when ploppies complained about my playing decisions, but then I noticed they tend to leave when I "take the dealer's bust card." And I don't mind their absence one bit. More good cards for me.

    I imagine most career paths lose their luster with time. I've been in my real career for 15 years now and it's certainly lost its sparkly glitter and become every-day dull.

    I have no regrets in AP or work.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushie View Post
    "I ask long term APs; if you could turn back time to the point where you decided to commit to counting as a career, would you still choose to do it? Or would you have done something else?"

    If I could turn back time I wouldn't have resigned from my lucrative profession. I'd have been a law-abiding citizen of the establishment earning roughly $150,000 yearly. More than triple my average annual earnings as a Pro Card Counter.
    My option would've been to become a Zen monk, or possibly to open a store creating custom-blended spice mixtures.

    I want to extend my sincere gratitude to Bushie for his succinct comprehensively accurate description of the disgusting casino-centric life, to wit:

    "Spending countless mind-numbingly boring hours doing repetitive mental calculations, often being in the company of less than desirable and obnoxious individuals and drunks, seeing the tragic state of degenerate gambling addicts throw their life savings away, hearing the same music playlist for the 4th time in an hour, constant anxiety about cover and whether or not the tap on the shoulder is coming today or tomorrow, wondering if there's better things to do with your limited time etc etc."

  4. #4


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    Just like everything in life, there’s pros and cons. I don’t enjoy the casino environment much, but I do enjoy the freedom. I’ve never held a traditional 9-5 job, so I can’t compare my experiences to that. I’ve been self-employed since age 20 and I’ve enjoyed it for the most part. I don’t see full time AP to be much different than owning a business actually.

    I think how much you earn will also help determine whether or not it’s worth the effort. I have a friend who made mid 6 figures last year. If you asked him if it was worth it, what do you think he’d say? Remember, it’s all relative.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    I'm competitive by nature. That's the attraction.

  6. #6
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    The folks you deal with in business aren't always a lot of fun either. And, you can't ignore them or change tables whenever you're annoyed.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    The folks you deal with in business aren't always a lot of fun either. And, you can't ignore them or change tables whenever you're annoyed.
    Run it like a biz, with expenses as a budgeted percentage of revenue with defined metrics for analysis. As for getting rid f Schneider’s, just ask 3. He’s the best st everything. I know, becausep he says so.

  8. #8
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Wasn't talking about customers. Customers are generally easy. More along the lines of the highly competitive nature and internal politics of big finance corps.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushie View Post
    Is it really worth it?
    Spending countless mind-numbingly boring hours doing repetitive mental calculations, often being in the company of less than desirable and obnoxious individuals and drunks, seeing the tragic state of degenerate gambling addicts throw their life savings away, hearing the same music playlist for the 4th time in an hour, constant anxiety about cover and whether or not the tap on the shoulder is coming today or tomorrow, wondering if theres better things to do with your limited time etc etc.

    So I ask long term APs; if you could turn back time to the point where you decided to commit to counting as a career, would you still choose to do it? Or would you have done something else?
    I realize that you asked about people who chose to commit to counting as a career, but I can answer as someone who has been playing and winning since 1978. I have used it more as a lucrative hobby than as a main source of income. I would never spend a long time doing something that made me miserable. Many years ago my wife and I both changed professions and lost over 50% of our income as a result. It was rough, and winnings from blackjack helped with the transition, but it was the best decision we ever made. I mention that to say, I don't know how old you are, but no amount of money is worth a lifetime of misery. As far as boredom is concerned; if you keep learning new ways to beat the casinos, it will be more mentally stimulating. Where many see only degenerate gambling addicts, I see them as part of the picture. Some people are good enough at golf to make a living. Are the others who play every chance they get (purely for the enjoyment), degenerate addicts? I understand the potential for abuse, but not every gambler is an addict - just as not every drinker is a drunk.

    If the first paragraph is how you view the casino environment, then I believe the answer for you is no, it is not worth it. When I was younger the older guys used to have many sayings, one of them was "Everything ain't for everybody."

  10. #10


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    The OP sounds Australian where casino AP is not a practical option for the vast majority of people. For all those that try only a very small number are truly successful. So it is important to be happy, whatever you do.
    Casino Enemy No.1

  11. #11


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    I read my first book about counting around 1980 when I was still in my 20s. I was intrigued, but decided to spend my time with my career, family and weekend warrior activities. 30+ years later after I had retired, I learned to count and have had a lot of fun with it, but as a hobby. I make a few bucks, but there's no pressure, which helps after a loss. The competition is fun and replaces sports that I'm too old for now. I play as much or a little as I want, and when I lose a casino because of a backoff, it's not a big deal. Everyone is different, but I'm glad I waited to immerse myself in counting since it would have been a big distraction for me when I was younger. If you're a young person who has gotten a good education, my advice FWIW is to not let counting distract from your career.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJPloppy View Post
    I realize that you asked about people who chose to commit to counting as a career, but I can answer as someone who has been playing and winning since 1978. I have used it more as a lucrative hobby than as a main source of income. I would never spend a long time doing something that made me miserable. Many years ago my wife and I both changed professions and lost over 50% of our income as a result. It was rough, and winnings from blackjack helped with the transition, but it was the best decision we ever made. I mention that to say, I don't know how old you are, but no amount of money is worth a lifetime of misery. As far as boredom is concerned; if you keep learning new ways to beat the casinos, it will be more mentally stimulating. Where many see only degenerate gambling addicts, I see them as part of the picture. Some people are good enough at golf to make a living. Are the others who play every chance they get (purely for the enjoyment), degenerate addicts? I understand the potential for abuse, but not every gambler is an addict - just as not every drinker is a drunk.

    If the first paragraph is how you view the casino environment, then I believe the answer for you is no, it is not worth it. When I was younger the older guys used to have many sayings, one of them was "Everything ain't for everybody."

    How appropo that I should be reading your very interesting post, having just arrived at an airport for a flight home. I've been in this playing location since Friday morning.

    I'm semi retired, putting in a regular gruelling 6-8 hour average work week, travel time included. Take driving time out, around $150 an hour. It's an almost perfect schedule.

    YTD playing results are 24.25 hours, which includes a 2 hour playing session in early January. Results are okay at $7624, with an expense factor, lower than expected, at under $900. Im actually annoyed at my expense factor as a percentage of revenue, feeling that it should be lower, in other words, I should have higher revenue.

    That aside, I view this, as you, as a lucrative hobby. There are other non operating expenses that need to be taken into account, such as the the family home house vig required to fund the wife's secret stash, this stash which funds (that I apparently know nothing about) certain grandchildren and children expense.

    Beating the house is one way to keep score, and creates a fun challenge to those so inclined. I have no illusions that I could handle this physically as a full time vocation - 20-25 hours a month being more than sufficient. Locally, I could handle far more hours, however, that is no longer an option.

    As an aside, a new situation today, the solution which may be attractive for others in a similar situation. Driving conditions at home are apparently very bad. My wife dropped me off at the airport early Friday, and she is reluctant to pick me up, suggesting that I take a cab. Our house, from the airport, is on the extreme opposite side of the city, probably a $200 cab ride.
    I could have parked myself at the airport for 4 billed days at $50-60, which I've done in the past. I considered an airport shuttle to downtown, and then a cab. Our city us not used to car services as such, but I've arranged for a car service for about 80-90 for about a 40 minute drive in good driving conditions. I view that as a reasonable deal.

  13. #13


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    Knowing people who are in the corporate world and hearing their descriptions of all the bullshit, I have never regretted not being part of it. Self-employed most of my life, the few "normal" jobs I ever had I very much enjoyed.
    Opinions and Commentary on the Gaming Industry: The Bear Growls

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