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Thread: Double on a soft 19

  1. #27


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    It's right. Also see p. 375 of BJA3, which is for S17. The point is that, unlike most plays, this one has you departing from BS when the TC is LESS than the index (like 12 v. 4). And, as you saw from the graph Philippe supplied, the delta between the two edges remains very small throughout huge variance of the true count. So, it simply doesn't matter if you double or not.

    Don
    Hi Don,

    In table 13.11 on page 375, are you saying the correct A8v6 decision for S17 games is to double at +1 or below, otherwise stand? Or is that just for H17 games and the right choice for S17 games is to double at +1 or higher, otherwise stand?

  2. #28


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    Quote Originally Posted by NB10 View Post
    Hi Don,

    In table 13.11 on page 375, are you saying the correct A8v6 decision for S17 games is to double at +1 or below, otherwise stand? Or is that just for H17 games and the right choice for S17 games is to double at +1 or higher, otherwise stand?
    No, you're misunderstanding. In S17 games, BS for A,8 v. 6 is to hit. You need +1 or higher to double, and the r-a- index doesn't change. For H17, the BS is already to double, and the e.v.-maximizing index is 0.

    I was explaining that, unlike most non-negative doubling index plays, where you DEPART from BS if you attain the index or HIGHER, for this play, for H17, you depart from the BS (which is already to double), and stand, when you are BELOW the index of 0.

    Don

  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    And, as you saw from the graph Philippe supplied, the delta between the two edges remains very small throughout huge variance of the true count. So, it simply doesn't matter if you double or not.
    Don
    Scale in my graph isn't percentage. It's win/lose by bet unit.
    And 19 vs 6 is in "Catch 20".

  4. #30


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    No, you're misunderstanding. In S17 games, BS for A,8 v. 6 is to hit. You need +1 or higher to double, and the r-a- index doesn't change. For H17, the BS is already to double, and the e.v.-maximizing index is 0.

    I was explaining that, unlike most non-negative doubling index plays, where you DEPART from BS if you attain the index or HIGHER, for this play, for H17, you depart from the BS (which is already to double), and stand, when you are BELOW the index of 0.

    Don
    Thanks Don. Do you mean BS for A8v6 is to stand, not hit?

    I have been doubling A8v6 at +1 or higher and standing otherwise.

  5. #31


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    Quote Originally Posted by NB10 View Post
    Thanks Don. Do you mean BS for A8v6 is to stand, not hit?

    I have been doubling A8v6 at +1 or higher and standing otherwise.
    Yes, sorry about that. Wrote it correctly in the second part of the post. Just edited my original.

    Don

  6. #32


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    Quote Originally Posted by Philippe B View Post
    Scale in my graph isn't percentage. It's win/lose by bet unit.
    And 19 vs 6 is in "Catch 20[22]".
    Same thing. It's labeled "advantage." It's the percentage advantage you have each way, making the two plays. Win/lose by unit bet is equivalent.

    Don

  7. #33


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Meanwhile, the hand occurs 92 times out of 100,000, which means that, at 100 hands per hour, you see this hand (at all counts) once every 11 hours.
    I could swear I had this hand at least 5 times on my last bj trip.

  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    No, you're misunderstanding. In S17 games, BS for A,8 v. 6 is to hit. You need +1 or higher to double, and the r-a- index doesn't change. For H17, the BS is already to double, and the e.v.-maximizing index is 0.
    This is why I don't do my indices by what is required to deviate from BS. I just use a stand/double index. You double at or above the index and stand below it. If you have an index BS is irrelevant. Why make indices harder to remember by having to recall BS before you use the index? BS is only relevant if you don't have the count.

  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midwest Player View Post
    I could swear I had this hand at least 5 times on my last bj trip.
    If you were around expectation, you played two spots about 2,720 rounds or 5,435 hands on your trip. That's around 24 hours of play on average for me. My last trip I had a couple of lightning fast dealers that dealt most of the rounds I played. I got that many hands in about 16 hours.

  10. #36


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    BS is only relevant if you don't have the count.
    I have to disagree. It could be argued that each true count has its own basic strategy, however, that approach would be truly cumbersome. BS is the template model. Each increase or decrease in true count creates its own bs deviations. Any competent player knows what these deviations are, choosing what to, and what not to incorporate.

    Proper play at true 0 is basic.

    Keep in mind that I'm referring to how most people play, paying no regard to linear systems with decision bins," card groupings etc. - paying no heed at true 0, 3 decks in.

  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Proper play at true 0 is basic.
    Try thinking about the match of 16vT. BS is to hit but at TC 0 the proper index play is to stand.

  12. #38


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Try thinking about the match of 16vT. BS is to hit but at TC 0 the proper index play is to stand.
    Point taken, but most of my play incorporates surrender though I tend to hit in negative counts.
    Should I come across another anomaly as you've mentioned, I'll scratch my balls and think about it.

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    I have to disagree. It could be argued that each true count has its own basic strategy, however, that approach would be truly cumbersome. BS is the template model. Each increase or decrease in true count creates its own bs deviations. Any competent player knows what these deviations are, choosing what to, and what not to incorporate.
    What difference does BS make if you are going to make your decision based on the count. That was my point. Remembering BS is just an extra step to getting to your playing decision. While I agree you should know BS. I don't think remembering it should be involved in making the correct index play which is why I convert all my indices to a playing decision barrier rather than the point at which you deviate from basic strategy. Some games have as many as 8 different indices for the same point total and dealer up-card depending on the hand composition that adds to the point total. BS is very complicated as are the index plays.

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