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Thread: Favorite starting blackjack books?

  1. #14


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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuba View Post
    Of course you do. Zenmaster is a purist and I understand his perspective.

    Either Zenmaster does not believe in or care for what is known as the Pareto principle.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

    The KO count and its derivatives such as REKO are an example of the Pareto principle applied to card counting systems. The Illustrious 18 / Fab 4 index plays are also an example of this mathematical principle in effect.

    If you want excellence in card counting, if you are going to take this stuff very seriously over the long term, then I agree that the counting system taught in the KO book is probably not for you. If you want excellence, then I think it is important to get acclimated to a balanced count early. Getting good at deck estimation and the real life process of dividing at the tables is essential if you eventually want to learn the very best, most powerful counts. But even then, I think the first chapter of the KO book is good to get a sense of the the history of blackjack and the basic idea of cardcounting.

    But if you are going to do this part time and be more of a recreational counter who only visits casinos occasionally, then I think the KO book is a good book for you.
    Hey Scuba! You stopped employing KO in your game?

    Sent from my SM-J730F using Tapatalk

  2. #15


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    I am going to give the oh-so amiable ZenMaster the benefit of the doubt given his experience and current health problems (I hope you get better!)

    I've looked through this stuff myself and it basically seems that overall, a strong balanced count is going to be stronger than a simple balanced count. Significantly more so. I've looked at some sims on CVCX and on the same types of games with the same spread, a strong balanced count such as FELT full (which I believe is basically RPC) will give you about 20% more than a simple level one unbalanced count like KO or REKO. And from what I understand, Zen uses Hi-Opt 2 with a side count of aces which makes that count even stronger. My guesstimate is that the way Zen counts would give you up to 25% more than a simple KO count.

    25%.

    I understand marginal benefit, diminishing returns and such, but 25% more is a good chunk of cash.

    It depends on how you look at it. If you were to earn a million dollars over time counting cards with a more complex count, a simple count would have netted you $250,000 less. To me, that is a good chunk of money and I can understand how a professional would find it foolish to leave such money on the table.

    So if you are putting in all this efforts, travelling long distances for good games, and risking large amounts with respect to your bankroll, I could see how a professional would say it is foolish to then default to a simple count. If you are really putting in all this efforts and are really serious about this, then shouldn't you go all the way? It's like a person training to get into major league baseball, doing all the practices and workouts and sacrifices and such, and then getting to the major leagues and using a so-so baseball bat. I can see how a professional would say that doesn't make sense.

    Not necessarily my take on things, but I can understand why Zen chides people for taking the this shortcut after they are already taking everything else so seriously.

  3. #16


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    No ferenc, still using it. But I haven't been to the casinos lately.

    I was thinking about going with FELT and then going to FELT full, but the reality for me is that at this point in time, I am a recreational card counter. I count when I go on vacations with my wife, on cruise ships and such. So-so 8 deck shoe games. And I only go periodically, so I would be out of practice if I used to the more complex counts when I do go on vacation.

    But an unbalanced level 1 like REKO (which I use) really is a breeze. I can be away from casinos for a long time and then go after like 3 or 6 months and still use the count effectively and have an edge at the game. And I am getting basically 80% of the EV I can get from a more complex count with 20% of the effort. And since the count is easy, I don't forget it and can employ it whenever I do find myself at a casino.

    It is a good count for me at the point in time. I will keep using REKO and keep enjoying REKO!

  4. #17
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuba View Post
    I understand marginal benefit, diminishing returns and such, but 25% more is a good chunk of cash.

    It depends on how you look at it.
    I disagree with you.

    + 25% EV is true- only in computer simulations. In real life i agree with +5 % EV in shoes game. Causes- hands/hour and suboptimal bets.

    When playing with tracking, the situation is reversed - simple systems have a larger win rate. Paradox ! ))

    Causes- ability to track more play zones.
    Last edited by Gramazeka; 11-21-2017 at 09:04 PM.
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  5. #18


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    I am talking about computer sims. Not real life taking errors into account.

    But I am taking it as a possibility that a professional who does this all day and is hardcore about counting can in fact approximate the mathematical sims. I may or may not be right about this. It depends on the person.

    But I would think there are a handful of hardcore people who can approximate the additional 20% return of more complex counts.

    But I am talking serious professionals. Like heart surgeon brain surgeon master guitarist or violinist types of professionals.

    That is probably not most people.

    But professionals who dedicate the majority of their time to this probably can get close to that 20% or so additional return.

    But that's not me, not at this point. I'm fine with REKO's returns as I am a recreational counter.

  6. #19
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    I understand what you're talking about, but you do not understand what I want to say - causes not errors, causes- hands/hour and suboptimal bets.

    Do not need to transfer computer simulation to real life. It is necessary to transfer the real life (game) to computer simulations. These are two different situations.
    Last edited by Gramazeka; 11-21-2017 at 08:54 PM.
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  7. #20


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    Ah, I see what you are saying. You are saying that there are many real-life factors that are out of our control, even in the best of circumstances.

    You are saying that even if a person is a card-counting virtuoso, the real life conditions at a casino will never let you reach the EV computed by a computer sim.

    This makes sense.

    But wouldn't this set ALL card counting systems back basically evenly, thus still putting the strongest card counting system employed by a virtuoso at a 20% or so advantage relative to the KO or Hilo player?

  8. #21
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    Not. -

    1) 102 hands in one hour with Hi Lo vs 100 hands in one hour with Hi Opt 2. Speed. Understand me? ))- this is a fair comparison.Why- my Hi Lo easier than Hi Opt 2.

    2) Also for maximizing your EV your bets will always be suboptimal due to the falling speed of the game. For example-

    Table 25- 300$.

    1) Hi Lo have optimal bets:

    +1 TC= 100$
    +2 TC= 200$
    +3 TC= 300$

    2) Hi Opt 2 have optimal bets

    115$

    225 $

    300 $

    Why ? This system ( Hi Opt 2 ) is more accurate.

    Question: Which system will play more hands in the same time frame?

    Answer: Hi Lo.
    Last edited by Gramazeka; 11-21-2017 at 10:52 PM.
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  9. #22


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    OMG, this has to be a record. I think we went three weeks without a mycountisbetterthanyourcount debate.

    Since the OP is just starting, I recommend starting with HiLo. You have to learn to count by cancelling, and the BC is good.

    My primary count is HiOpt2 on both shoe and 2D, and I think it's easy. BUT, I do log bigger wins and smaller losses in the mornings. Fatigue later in the day? Probably. Where I live, there is a TON of 2D, and HiOpt2 works better for that game (IMHO)

    I also use HiLo. If you're a recreational, or occasional, counter, master this system. It's more important to do one count well, than to do a "better" count poorly.

  10. #23
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCJH View Post
    It's more important to do one count well, than to do a "better" count poorly.
    It is necessary to know how to correctly compare systems using different parameters
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  11. #24


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramazeka View Post
    It is necessary to know how to correctly compare systems using different parameters
    Agreed. That's why I put "better" in quotes.

  12. #25
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    I like books Arnold Snyder. Since we talked about the optimal bets, i want to advise the book by Snyder " Blackbelt in Blackjack". Chapter 15 "The Unencountered Counter". After reading this chapter, many players will reconsider their optimal bets.

    https://www.amazon.com/Blackbelt-Bla...der+black+jack
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  13. #26


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    I know you guys have been at this way longer than me. I'm not trying to be "blackjack cool" or do stupid girlish one-upping sort of baloney. I am asking sincere questions and would like to learn and read the different arguments.

    I understand your argument about speed. That does make sense and is heartening for a person like me who is very good at a simple count, REKO, so this would help me. One could even make the argument that an unbalanced level one count is so Ridiculously Easy (hence, REKO) that REKO could be employed faster than even Hilo, making it more effective in action. (But note, I AM NOT doing the my count is better than your count thing. I just want to think an assess and learn)

    But I don't understand the argument that your bet will be suboptimal due to the slower pace of the game.

    Isn't your bet size based on the current count and your bankroll / risk tolerance?

    I don't intuitively get this second argument and I would appreciate clarification.

    Thanks for the help and the lesson!

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