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Thread: Is Double for less(after splitting Aces) really worth +0.07% ?

  1. #1


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    Is Double for less(after splitting Aces) really worth +0.07% ?

    See link : https://wizardofodds.com/games/black...le-variations/

    The base rules : 8 decks, S17, DOA, DAS, player may split to 4 hands.


    Player may double, double for less, or stand after splitting aces = +0.15%

    Player may double or stand after splitting aces = +0.08%

    Does this mean that
    double for less after splitting aces really worth +0.07% ( 0.15% - 0.08%) ?

    How can double for less
    after splitting aces reduce the house edge ?

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by James989 View Post
    How can double for less after splitting aces reduce the house edge ?
    I've seen this before but can't remember the source right now. I *believe* the edge comes from receiving another card. Ideally you would double for $1 or even less, if they let you. I saw a modified strategy chart for this. You double for the absolute least you can in order to receive another card to potentially help your hand.

  3. #3


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    Usually with double for less table minimum applies so it all depends on how much you are betting relative to the table minimum.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    Usually with double for less table minimum applies so it all depends on how much you are betting relative to the table minimum.
    I think I know the reason behind and it only apply to rules of CANNOT hit but can double for less, for example, A2 vs 9, cannot hit, so it is better to double for less(minimum amount) to get a card. It depends on how much you are betting relative to the table minimum as well.

  5. #5


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    I'd assume you can double for the full amount on a good hand you'd normally double? That wasn't really a question but I threw a question mark on it anyway.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by RS View Post
    I'd assume you can double for the full amount on a good hand you'd normally double? That wasn't really a question but I threw a question mark on it anyway.
    Yes, you can double for the full amount on a good hand.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by James989 View Post
    I think I know the reason behind and it only apply to rules of CANNOT hit but can double for less, for example, A2 vs 9, cannot hit, so it is better to double for less(minimum amount) to get a card. It depends on how much you are betting relative to the table minimum as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by RS View Post
    I'd assume you can double for the full amount on a good hand you'd normally double?
    Yes and yes. When doubling for less in this situation, you should double for as little as possible. Furthermore, if you cannot double for less than the critical fraction for that hand, you should stand. The WoO has the strategy at:

    https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/20/

    He gives the critical fraction for the hand of A,7 vs T because it is quite small (1/35), but in reality each hand has a different critical fraction.

    The actual house edge depends on how little you can double for relative to your initial bet. The less you can double for, the closer the action comes to being the same as hitting exactly once and the lower the house edge. Imagine betting $1,000 and being allowed to double for $5 or even $1. I don't know how the WoO came up with a fixed value of 0.15%. Perhaps it is the (theoretical only) result of being able to double for zero.

  8. #8


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    Here is my strategy for playing this rule for a 6 deck game

    http://gronbog.org/results/blackjack...litAces.6.html

    Some notes:


    • Please disregard the rule set in the header. This chart was generated long ago for a different game and it references rules that have no effect on this strategy.
    • Actions after a + are positive EV and actions after a - are negative EV
    • Notice how we double for less on the -EV doubles
    • lds indicates that you can double for any amount but that it should be for as little as possible. For these hands, you will see that the critical fraction is zero.
    • ls indicates that you must be able to double for less than the critical fraction, otherwise you should stand
    • d indicates to double for the full amount
    • Hover your mouse over a cell to see the EVs of each action and the critical fractions


    On a related topic, it turns out that all doubles have a critical fraction which must be met before you should double. For normal doubles, you need to be able to double for more than the critical fraction before it becomes the best play. This fact is lost on ploppies who sometime double for less out of fear or even more intelligent players who may be low on chips. Sometimes, they would be better off just hitting. You can see these critical fractions by hovering your mouse over a cell recommending a full double (see A,7 vs all). As with double for less, if the critical fraction is zero, then doubling for any amount is better than any other action.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    Here is my strategy for playing this rule for a 6 deck game

    http://gronbog.org/results/blackjack...litAces.6.html

    Some notes:


    • Please disregard the rule set in the header. This chart was generated long ago for a different game and it references rules that have no effect on this strategy.
    • Actions after a + are positive EV and actions after a - are negative EV
    • Notice how we double for less on the -EV doubles
    • lds indicates that you can double for any amount but that it should be for as little as possible. For these hands, you will see that the critical fraction is zero.
    • ls indicates that you must be able to double for less than the critical fraction, otherwise you should stand
    • d indicates to double for the full amount
    • Hover your mouse over a cell to see the EVs of each action and the critical fractions


    On a related topic, it turns out that all doubles have a critical fraction which must be met before you should double. For normal doubles, you need to be able to double for more than the critical fraction before it becomes the best play. This fact is lost on ploppies who sometime double for less out of fear or even more intelligent players who may be low on chips. Sometimes, they would be better off just hitting. You can see these critical fractions by hovering your mouse over a cell recommending a full double (see A,7 vs all). As with double for less, if the critical fraction is zero, then doubling for any amount is better than any other action.
    What about for redoubling an rescue rules?

  10. #10


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    You know of a game where you can redouble and rescue but can only double or stand on split aces?

  11. #11


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    Oh -- I know what you're asking about now. Yes it is often correct to re-double for less for the same reason as in the OP's game. Your options are either to re-double, stand or rescue.

    I have a strategy for this for 5 and 6 deck H17 DDD Spanish 21.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gronbog View Post
    Oh -- I know what you're asking about now. Yes it is often correct to re-double for less for the same reason as in the OP's game. Your options are either to re-double, stand or rescue.

    I have a strategy for this for 5 and 6 deck H17 DDD Spanish 21.
    How may I get a copy?

  13. #13


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    I thought I could attach it to a PM, but there doesn't seem to be a way to do that. Please respond with an email address.

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