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Thread: Day 1 - FIRST TIME BJ PLAY at casino after weeks of practicing CVBJ Verite!!!

  1. #1


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    Day 1 - FIRST TIME BJ PLAY at casino after weeks of practicing CVBJ Verite!!!

    I just came back from 8 hours of playing blackjack at a foreigners-only casino in South Korea.
    This was my first time playing BJ at a casino (actually my first time ever playing at a casino).
    Since I am a very cowardish and careful person, I practiced everyday about a month using
    CVBJ. I was hesitant to play at first, because I thought the BJ table was six-deck was rather
    an eight-deck, but I still went on:

    Eight-Deck
    Stand on all 17
    RSA (no double after splitting aces)
    Can double any cards
    DAS
    Can split any number of repeating cards
    Late Surrender any cards
    BJ Paid 3-to-2
    Penetration 65%-70% (ouch)
    Insurance available
    ***ZERO HEAT
    for 1) bet spread, and 2) wonging out.

    I am a FELT-F/Full Indices player.

    Number of Players Played Together:
    Always at least 3 players were at the table - because of shortage of tables.

    Wong-in Option (X):
    Checking out the atmosphere of the casino, there are only three $10 minimum tables,
    so many times the tables are full, and most of them play until the end even when the
    TC goes very negative => I crossed out "wong-in +2" option.

    Wong-out Option (O):
    It was a chill atmosphere where some people leave (phone, bathroom break, "tilted"),
    and only few people complain about it, saying that they "mess up the flow", lol.
    I wonged-out only when TC <-2 at deep penetration.

    Two-hand Spread Option:
    Some people ranted at me when I went back and forth between two-hand and one-hand
    when the table wasn't even full - complaining that I "mess up the flow", lol i just ignored them.
    So I decided to go back and forth only when 2,3 players are playing.

    Result: 8 hours of playing => ~$250 profit.
    I started with bank roll of $500, but I was nervous and scared that I actually cashed in
    only $300. So basically, I only used $300 to turn it into a $250 profit.

    Betting Spread*** (sth I found intriguing):
    I knew that in general larger the spread, higher SCORE; but since my bankroll was
    ridiculously low, I decided to use only 1-2 Betting spread, but only when the
    penetration gets deeper, I used 1-4 bet spread.

    INTERESTING THING I LEARNED***:
    I only have been practicing six-deck using CVBJ, and it seemed the betting & playing
    according to correct TC (using correct full indices) in eight-deck shoe doesn't mean
    as much at the beginning of the shoe (at low penetration)
    . So I almost flat-betted
    at low penetration, betting only 1 unit until TC +2. AT FIRST, I USED 1-5 SPREAD
    (1 UNIT AT TC+1, 2 UNIT AT TC+2, 3 UNIT AT TC+3, ETC) BUT
    I LOST ALL MY PROFITS ($300) IN LIKE AN HOUR.

    So I was tilted and timidly went back to 1-2 Betting Spread, and carefully spread to
    1-3 at deeper penetration (starting at about 50%). So in last two hours, step by step,
    again gained about $250 profit and left.

    Now please, questions for all of you - I'd appreciate if you could answer!!

    1) Am I correct in thinking that betting spread should change at different penetration
    (depth) for many-deck games, like eight-deck?

    2) If yes to the previous question, does CVBJ/CVData have options to
    find out which betting spread is effective at different penetration (depth)?

    3) Any corrections to this thread are welcomed, please.

    4) I still have yet to find out whether playing Two-Hand whole-shoe
    is better than playing One-hand. Due to the atmosphere of the casino,
    I think I should stick with one whole shoe unless there are only
    few people at the table.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by Planisphere; 10-12-2017 at 06:01 AM.

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by Planisphere View Post
    Am I correct in thinking that betting spread should change at different penetration
    (depth) for many-deck games, like eight-deck?
    With deep penetration, the less the need to spread aggressively.
    With poor penetration, you MUST spread aggressively.
    More importantly, you need to comprehend Risk of Ruin.

  3. #3


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    I only have been practicing six-deck using CVBJ, and it seemed the betting & playing
    according to correct TC (using correct full indices) in eight-deck shoe doesn't mean
    as much at the beginning of the shoe (at low penetration)
    .
    That is not the case, nor can much useful information be gleaned by the results of a small period of hands. It does not matter where in the shoe you obtain your true count.

  4. #4


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    Nice post. Concise, easy to understand.

    The true count IS the measure of the advantage regardless of the penetration. Remember, true count is calculated by using the running count and ADJUSTING by the number of decks (or partial decks) remaining thereby adjusting for penetration. There is more slight value to depth of penetration but for now I suggest you ignore as it will be inconsequential.

    Your 1-2 spread is impotent in either a 6 or 8 deck game. Think in terms of 1-12 or higher.

    When and how to do one or two hands is a raging debate. My general advice is 2 hands if you can play both at table minimum. Many will advise spreading at positive counts. Two hands will allow you to bet more money and raise your EV while at the nearly same variance. At your bankroll, I would counsel one hand until bank is much larger.

    Invest in the book Blackjack Attack V3, by Don Schlesinger, as it contains the accurate answers to many, many questions. Read it and then you will use it for reference the remainder of your blackjack life.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  5. #5


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    I disagree with the above two posters. Especially when you are first starting out it is wise to not bet very much in absolute dollar terms until you have had some more practice. Furthermore, if a 12-1 spread would cause you to exceed kelly but a 2-1 spread would not, then the latter is clearly preferred. Does OP really have a $12,000 bankroll? I won't speculate, but if he doesn't then the advice to spread 12:1 could be disastrous were it to be taken to heart.

  6. #6


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    In general, a plus count is a plus count, no matter where it occurs in the deck. That is why you "true" your running count to the number of decks remaining. [Note: I am ignoring the entire discussion of Floating Advantage discussed in BJAttack (Schlesinger). But I don't believe Floating Advantage is relevant for this discussion.] I sure I'll be corrected if I am wrong.

    That being said, shoes with better penetration will generally provide more opportunities for positive counts. Hence, when ZenMaster_Flash says you must spread aggressively with poor penetration...... you are trying to use the aggressive spreading to help overcome the fact that a shoe with poor penetration presents fewer opportunities for positive betting situation.

  7. #7


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    it doesn't really make any logical sense to bet more at a given advantage just because the game has worse penetration.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post


    When and how to do one or two hands is a raging debate. My general advice is 2 hands if you can play both at table minimum. Many will advise spreading at positive counts. Two hands will allow you to bet more money and raise your EV while at the nearly same variance. At your bankroll, I would counsel one hand until bank is much larger.

    Invest in the book Blackjack Attack V3, by Don Schlesinger, as it contains the accurate answers to many, many questions. Read it and then you will use it for reference the remainder of your blackjack life.
    Of course, if you spread to two hands in positive counts you might as well wear a sign that says, "I'm a counter."

    Agree with the recommendation to buy BJA, V3 [Schlesinger]

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    it doesn't really make any logical sense to bet more at a given advantage just because the game has worse penetration.
    What impacts SCORE? Well, penetration impacts SCORE. As penetration increases, so does SCORE. Bet spread also impacts SCORE. Spreading more aggressively increases SCORE. So, in theory one can overcome worse penetration by spreading more aggressively.

    The problem: Look at the numbers. Small changes in penetration create relatively large changes in SCORE. It would require a massive increase in bet spreading to offset the impacts of penetration. But, changes in bet spreading will help. But in reality, the better solution is to find a dealer often better pen, if possible.

  10. #10


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    So, in theory one can overcome worse penetration by spreading more aggressively.
    That's irrational. If your optimal bet at a given advantage is $50, why would you bet $75 at this advantage just because they start cutting more decks out? You shouldn't be trying to solve for a given hourly rate but instead basing your bets on your advantage adjusted for how cautious you would like to be.

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