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    Senior Member BetWise21's Avatar
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    Hi-lo Counters, Friends and Private Messaging

    I am a relatively new Hi-lo counter. I am considering subscribing to this site for the express purpose of private messaging and making friends with other Hi-lo counters. I am not interesting in starting a count debate or justification. I would just like to share and learn from other hi-lo counters. Would anyone else be interested in talking about and sharing information about Hi-lo counting, as well as participating in the main forum? I believe there are ideas and situations that are unique to Hi-lo compared to other the unique ideas that are relevant to other count systems.

    At this time I am just trying to learn to be the very best Hi-Lo counter I can be.

  2. #2


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    First you have to subscribe to have access to private messaging.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  3. #3
    Senior Member BetWise21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BetWise21 View Post
    I am considering subscribing to this site for the express purpose of private messaging
    I understand that.

    I was posting to see if anyone was interested in talking about HI-Lo, when posted in the general forum Hi-Lo discussions seem to get derailed and not much is learned except there are a lot of opinions about counts.

  4. #4


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    I would just continue to post concise questions with as much detail as possible. Quite often people don't answer questions because the OP doesn't give enough info... such as "What's my advantage at my local game at TC +3???" Well, we don't know the rules of your local game, etc, etc, for example.

    There are definitely benefits of subscribing to sites. However, I've learned more than I ever thought possible about Hi/Low, and it never required a paid membership to any site. A few books, possibly some simulation software, but if you just want to ask questions and have discussion with informed individuals, just post your questions. Other sites, such as WoV you don't have to be a member to post to the regular blackjack forums. I'm not urging you to go there over here, just saying the sea is big and answers can be found for those who seek them.
    Don't think you have a winning game; know you have a winning game.

  5. #5


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    Romes is that you!
    Youre gambling with an edge podcast was the dogs bollocks - information that some here sorely need.
    Getting ASKED to bet 350 at the sweaty spaniard - there's no equation for that.

    What is there to discuss with the hi lo - theres more information on that than all other counts combined. You want to talk about morse code too?

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by BetWise21 View Post
    Lets see if I can explain. My reference materials are, Uston, Wong x 2, Malmuth, Snyder, Renzy, Carlson, Turner, Schlesinger, Anderson, Cardoza x 2, Perry, Griffin, Wattenberger, and Smith. I have CVBJ and CV Drills on two iPhones, my IPad my laptop which also incudes CV Data and CVCX along with about a dozen or more practice apps. I belong to one forum and read updates on at least 4 forums. I am a practicing student. I have played about 30 different casinos. I mostly play 6 & 8 deck games mostly red chip, but do play chunking green and have been know to wander in a high limit room and play some black. I am studying Hi-lo and use about 27 indexes.
    It sounds like you have a great setup and you've been very diligent in your learning/training. How many hours do you have in counting? Do you keep accurate records of your live play? You might be a bit further along than a beginner =P. However, most blackjack players don't play red and occasionally play black. I'd be concerned about your bankroll management. There's really 2 scenarios and I don't think either sound too good:

    1) You have the bankroll to play black on occasion... Which begs the question as to why you mainly play red. If you're not 100% comfortable with your skill level, then you probably shouldn't be playing black where mistakes will start costing you a decent amount of money. If you are comfortable with your skill level then you should be playing higher levels if you indeed have the bankroll to support it. I suppose some small margin for error could be that you don't always have certain games available to you, but most casinos will offer you those 3 tiers (red, green, and black).

    2) You do not have the bankroll to consistently play black, in which case you'd be jeopardizing your bankroll by doing so, even on occasion. Say you jump on a black table and get monster counts a few shoes in a row and just go on a horrendous losing streak (which trust me, can and will happen in the game of blackjack). That could crush your bankroll or even take you to bust!

    Quote Originally Posted by BetWise21 View Post
    I am trying to learn what other Hi-lo players do in the real world, off the pages of a book. Do they use only I18 and fab 4, do they use more indexes, do they play all, do they Wong out? Do they use risk adverse indexes? What is their battle plan? How do they keep from going on tilt? I hoping to fine tune my game. Last outing I won 130 units from a 20 unit buy in, twice in the same night, but went home a loser. I believe there is always more to learn.
    I18 and Fab4 is what I would consider the standard minimum requirement to having a winning game. Those more passionate will learn more indexes and earn some extra EV. However, in my opinion, they are diminishing returns. I'd say -2 to +8 would be a good range of indices to learn, which usually comes out to be a few more than the 27 you're currently at. Once you get up to around 30-40 which should cover this range personally I think that's well enough for indexes. The time you'd spend learning anything past that is MUCH MORE VALUABLE looking for other ways of making more EV (such as side bets, spread optimization, and other plays in BJ and non BJ games).

    I personally don't use risk adverse indexes, but others might. That would have to be something you'd have to weight the pros and cons of. Do you give up very slight amounts of EV to keep your risk low? How does your bankroll look now? Can you afford to play the game as mathematically dictated now? If you're short on funds but are willing to play with a higher RoR, then perhaps the risk adverse plays are better for you. If you want to get max EV and are willing to replenish your bankroll then perhaps the risk adverse plays that cost a little EV are not worth it to you. Every counter must decide these for themselves based on their situation. Again, for my opinion, I do not play with risk adverse indexes.

    Battle Plan - This should be your bankroll, RoR, spread, and EV calculations all done before ever stepping in to a casino. You should know your spread, indexes, average bet, EV, and when you're in a casino you're literally just following the correct way to play every single hand. There WILL come a time where due to heat you may deviate from the perfect play (such as splitting 10's if you feel you're getting any kind of heat already).. but for the most part the battle plan is to just play as perfectly as possible. There is a bit more to this though, than the math guys will tell you. As discussed in my articles when I walk in to a casino I don't always B line directly for the blackjack table I want. I walk around, maybe watch a point of craps, and try to look like a ploppy. When I buy in, I short buy... As in if you're playing red just buy in for like $50 or $100 and buy in more as necessary. When playing blackjack you want the pit to think you're just a low rolling ploppy so they leave you alone and don't pay attention to your play. If you come in to a BJ game and buy in for $2k, well, they're going to stand there and watch you. If you short buy with 20's they're going to think you're a regular broke gambler and walk away. Things like this that go in to your battle plan aren't always something that can be taught or read. Sometimes you just have to adapt and notice these things in your live experiences. Always reflect on your sessions, and don't always just think about the hands but also your persona from the point you walk in to a casino to the point you leave one. This is how over time you'll accumulate a ton of knowledge about things not related to the math, as discussed above.

    Tilt - Every player has a different tilt level. Everyone WILL eventually go "on tilt." The goal here is to recognize that you're tilting and have the self discipline to step away from the game if your level of frustration is affecting your play (and maybe not just your play but your demeanor at the table). Always be thinking of how you appear to the pit. Perhaps you had a good ploppy act, but when you tilt you start yelling at the cards "Of course I'm supposed to split these and double that but I get crap cards!" not realizing you're now showing your knowledge of the game. One thing that helps to contain tilt is to UNDERSTAND THE MATH behind the game more fully. You must understand that you WILL go through losing streaks and it IS completely plausible to be in the red for hundreds of hours on end (I've done that, while playing with a teammate). Once you understand these things you can tilt a bit less knowing they are expected. Do they feel great to have happen or go through? Hell no... but once you know it's not personal and that it's just math, you'll hopefully know the solution too... to keep playing an push through the down swings because the math WILL right itself in the long run.

    One thing that never ceases to amaze me about blackjack is that there is indeed always something more to learn. Just when you think you've got it all figured out, you hear someone else's story or you have an experience yourself that you've never thought of or been through before. If you keep your eyes and mind open, there's always some new information to take in and understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ustonzen View Post
    Romes is that you!
    Youre gambling with an edge podcast was the dogs bollocks - information that some here sorely need.
    Getting ASKED to bet 350 at the sweaty spaniard - there's no equation for that.
    Ha, the dogs bollocks? I'm glad to hear you enjoyed it, thanks =). I don't think I can ever go there again and yell "$5 winna!" but I think that's quite alright with me, and worth it for sharing that fun story =P.
    Last edited by Romes; 10-16-2017 at 08:57 AM.
    Don't think you have a winning game; know you have a winning game.

  7. #7
    Senior Member BetWise21's Avatar
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    Lets see if I can explain. My reference materials are, Uston, Wong x 2, Malmuth, Snyder, Renzy, Carlson, Turner, Schlesinger, Anderson, Cardoza x 2, Perry, Griffin, Wattenberger, and Smith. I have CVBJ and CV Drills on two iPhones, my IPad my laptop which also incudes CV Data and CVCX along with about a dozen or more practice apps. I belong to one forum and read updates on at least 4 forums. I am a practicing student. I have played about 30 different casinos. I mostly play 6 & 8 deck games mostly red chip, but do play chunking green and have been know to wander in a high limit room and play some black. I am studying Hi-lo and use about 27 indexes.

    I am trying to learn what other Hi-lo players do in the real world, off the pages of a book. Do they use only I18 and fab 4, do they use more indexes, do they play all, do they Wong out? Do they use risk adverse indexes? What is their battle plan? How do they keep from going on tilt? I hoping to fine tune my game. Last outing I won 130 units from a 20 unit buy in, twice in the same night, but went home a loser. I believe there is always more to learn.
    "between the conception and the reality, falls the shadow "

    Paraphrased: T.S. Eliot's
    The Hollow Men

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    Definitely learn some more indexes. Memorize 2-3 a day, it takes virtually no effort what so ever.

  9. #9
    Senior Member BetWise21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    Definitely learn some more indexes. Memorize 2-3 a day, it takes virtually no effort what so ever.
    I use Ken Smiths cards and compare them to Wong's Professional Blackjack for multideck games. I try to use indexes between TC -2 and +6, I don't see a whole lot more than the 27 I use, so that kind of confuses me.

    Ya know what, I am going to sit down with those cards today and see if I missed something that makes sense.
    Last edited by BetWise21; 10-14-2017 at 06:43 AM.
    "between the conception and the reality, falls the shadow "

    Paraphrased: T.S. Eliot's
    The Hollow Men

  10. #10
    Senior Member BetWise21's Avatar
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    I do have about 8 indexes I change for S17 games vs H17 games
    "between the conception and the reality, falls the shadow "

    Paraphrased: T.S. Eliot's
    The Hollow Men

  11. #11


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    I do have about 8 indexes I change for S17 games vs H17 games


    What are they?

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    What are they?
    Most differences in indexes between H17 and S17 games involve plays vs. dealer 6 or Ace;e.g., 12 v 6, 14,15,16 v Ace, A7 v Ace, 11 v Ace, A8 v 6, 99 v Ace. That’s 8 right there...

  13. #13
    Senior Member BetWise21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdaddy View Post
    Most differences in indexes between H17 and S17 games involve plays vs. dealer 6 or Ace;e.g., 12 v 6, 14,15,16 v Ace, A7 v Ace, 11 v Ace, A8 v 6, 99 v Ace. That’s 8 right there...
    12 vs 6 from -4 to -1
    11 v A from 0 to 1
    A8 v6 from 0 to 1
    A7 v 2 from 0 to 1
    12 v 3 from 1 to 2
    4 4 v 4 from 2 to 3 split
    9 9 v A from 2 to 3 split
    8 8 v A from sur to spl
    "between the conception and the reality, falls the shadow "

    Paraphrased: T.S. Eliot's
    The Hollow Men

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