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Thread: never seen a hole carding dealer and I've been trying

  1. #1


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    never seen a hole carding dealer and I've been trying

    3 months into blackjack hobby, 200+ hours of play, 100 diff. dealers, 65 casino sessions, and never found a hole card dealer to exploit.

    Sure, random inconsistent dealer mistakes that happen sometimes.

    Never found a dealer with technique that could show hole card, now unprotected shuffles on the other hand are everywhere and lucrative.

    Would really like to experience some hold carding game, guess my only chance is a wheel chair?

  2. #2


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    At home would be my recommendation . just ask your Gf/ wife to flash to you . LOL. you say you are educated ( somewhat intelligent) but made an unintelligent post .

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by stopgambling View Post
    At home would be my recommendation . just ask your Gf/ wife to flash to you . LOL. you say you are educated ( somewhat intelligent) but made an unintelligent post .
    Meaning the flashing of assets, is best to share in the privacy of our own bedrooms with trusted partners and not on the blackjack forum?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    Most card counters believe that modern shuffling is difficult enough to beat. But in reality everything depends on the talent of the shafltrekker. Ask many in the forum, they studied in detail books from Diaconis and Freedman ? Many talk about tracking and shuffling, completely not understanding the subject of conversation. Everyone wants to earn a lot by studying only the card account system. But many do not understand that the era of sweet black jack has long since passed.

    p.s. Better ask yourself, how much have you read and trained to be worthy of victory?

    List of books-

    [1] D. Aldous. Random walks on finite groups and rapidly mixing Markov chains. In Seminar on probability, XVII,
    volume 986 of Lecture Notes in Math. Springer, Berlin, 1983.
    [2] D. Aldous and P. Diaconis. Shuffling cards and stopping times. Amer. Math. Monthly, 1986.
    [3] D. Bayer and P. Diaconis. Trailing the dovetail shuffle to its lair. Ann. Appl. Probab., 1992.
    [4] S. Boyd, P. Diaconis, P. Parrilo, and L. Xiao. Symmetry analysis of reversible Markov chains. Internet Math. 2005.
    [5] T. Ceccherini-Silberstein, F. Scarabotti, and F. Tolli. Harmonic analysis on finite groups, volume 108 of Cam-
    bridge Studies in Advanced Mathematics. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2008. Representation theory,
    Gelfand pairs and Markov chains.
    [6] G.-Y. Chen and L. Saloff-Coste. The cutoff phenomenon for randomized riffle shuffles. Random Structures Algo-
    rithms, 2008.
    [7] M. Ciucu. No-feedback card guessing for dovetail shuffles. Ann. Appl. Probab., 1998.
    [8] M. Conger and D. Viswanath. Riffle shuffles of decks with repeated cards. Ann. Probab., 2006.
    [9] M. Conger and D. Viswanath. Normal approximations for descents and inversions of permutations of multisets.
    J. Theoret. Probab., 2007.
    [10] P. Diaconis. Group representations in probability and statistics. Institute of Mathematical Statistics Lecture
    Notes?Monograph Series, 11. Institute of Mathematical Statistics, Hayward, CA, 1988.
    [11] P. Diaconis. Mathematical developments from the analysis of riffle shuffling. In Groups, combinatorics & geometry
    (Durham, 2001),World Sci. Publ., River Edge, NJ, 2003.
    [12] P. Diaconis and J. Fulman. Carries, shuffling and an amazing matrix. preprint, 2008.
    [13] P. Diaconis and S. P. Holmes. Random walks on trees and matchings. Electron. J. Probab., 7:no. 6, 17 pp.
    (electronic), 2002.
    [14] P. Diaconis, M. McGrath, and J. Pitman. Riffle shuffles, cycles, and descents. Combinatorica, 15(1):11?29, 1995.
    [15] P. Diaconis and M. Shahshahani. Generating a random permutation with random transpositions. Z. Wahrsch.
    Verw. Gebiete, 1981.

    [16] A. F¨assler and E. Stiefel. Group theoretical methods and their applications. Birkh¨auser Boston Inc., Boston, MA,
    1992. Translated from the German by Baoswan Dzung Wong.
    [17] J. Fulman. Applications of symmetric functions to cycle and increasing subsequence structure after shuffles. J.
    Algebraic Combin.,, 2002.
    [18] M. Gardner. Martin Gardners New Mathematical Diversions from Scientific American. Simon & Schuster, New
    York, 1966.
    [19] E. Gilbert. Theory of shuffling. Technical memorandum, Bell Laboratories, 1955.
    [20] J. M. Holte. Carries, combinatorics, and an amazing matrix. Amer. Math. Monthly, 104(2):138 ,149, 1997.
    [21] J. Reeds. Theory of shuffling. Unpublished manuscript, 1976.
    [22] J.-P. Serre. Linear representations of finite groups. Springer-Verlag, New York, 1977. Translated from the second
    French edition by Leonard L. Scott, Graduate Texts in Mathematics, Vol. 42.
    [23] J. R. Weaver. Centrosymmetric (cross-symmetric) matrices, their basic properties, eigenvalues, and eigenvectors.
    Amer. Math. Monthly, 1985.
    Last edited by Gramazeka; 10-01-2017 at 04:23 PM.
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post

    Never found a dealer with technique that could show hole card, my only chance is a wheel chair?
    Yes.

    You are born 30 or 40 years too late. Casinos have eliminated the dealers who are vulnerable to hole carders.

  6. #6


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    Do not feel too bad, you wont see many truly exploitable flashing dealers and surely you wont expect anyone to give that information freely on an open forum.

  7. #7
    Random number herder Norm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    Yes.

    You are born 30 or 40 years too late. Casinos have eliminated the dealers who are vulnerable to hole carders.
    I shouldn't respond to this. On second thought... On third thought, I won't.
    "I don't think outside the box; I think of what I can do with the box." - Henri Matisse

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    Casinos have eliminated the dealers who are vulnerable to hole carders.
    You and Zee are made for each other.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    A world without flashers sounds sad. I'd like to think they still exist. You did respond though, Norm .

    Zee and BJI.. That would be quite a combo.
    Last edited by Bubbles; 10-01-2017 at 05:37 PM.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm View Post
    I shouldn't respond to this. On second thought... On third thought, I won't.
    few words said it all.

  11. #11


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    Mad respect to Gramazeka if he actually has read all of those. Thanks for the list, time to get busy!

  12. #12
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Mad respect to Gramazeka if he actually has read all of those. Thanks for the list, time to get busy!
    You need to start from the simple and move to the complex.
    1. Snyder + practical lessons for 2 hours. Check the practical results on the exercises. Make a conclusion- maybe shuffle trekking is not your weapon! After that, move on.
    2. Read the famous posts by "Statman" and "alienated".
    3. A detailed study of the debate between Snyder and Don Goren. By the way, it was this debate that prompted me to study books on the list. I admit that I did not read them all, but I looked through most of them. After some analysis of these books, I found very interesting thoughts in the posts by Don Goren.
    4. I could not fail to mention of course a very good program Verite SV Shuffle. Training with this program is vital !
    "Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Swine" (Jesus)

  13. #13
    Senior Member Gramazeka's Avatar
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    Here is the post from the "alienated", who was also interested in this debate Snyder vs Don Goren-

    "Having said all this, it would be misleading for me to suggest that the issue of the appropriate true-count divisor has been completely free of controversy. You may be aware of the extremely interesting debate that occurred between Arnold Snyder and Don Goren. Some of it can still be found in the archives at Michael Dalton's site, though I think it costs $35 to join. In brief, Goren argued in his _Blackjack Review_ series (1997) that his neural networks approach enabled him to base his true-count calculations on the number of decks in the segment, rather than some larger amount of pseudo decks. This was despite the presence of uncertainty in the situations he was addressing. However, it is important to realise that Goren's method was based on an attempt to predict the count of the segment based on information relating to *all* cards that were *likely* to be in the segment, not just a specific slug and some 'others'.

    Goren's argument was controversial. If we *knew* that our 3-deck segment contained two 1.5-deck slugs, each with a known running count, we would be completely justified in using an initial true-count divisor of 3. Very few, if any, would disagree with this. But Goren didn't know the exact count, but rather used a method which enabled him to predict the most likely count for each segment, based on the counts of the previous shoe's segments and the most likely postshuffle locations of those cards from the previous shoe. In other words, he was calculating the average count, and the variance of counts around the mean. Thus, while his initial true-count divisor would be set to the number of decks in the segment, it is possible that his estimate of the overall segment count took account of uncertainty, rather than being a simple averaging procedure.

    When I first read Goren's work I was convinced it was correct in every way. I'm not really sure now. I don't think he provided us with enough information to assess the method fully. Since his method does not adjust the initial true-count divisor, its validity appears to hinge on the appropriateness of his initial count estimate. However, it does seem hard to see how such a count estimate could allow for both the possibility that the running count falls slower than expected *and* the possibility that it will fall faster than expected.

    Now, it may be that Goren's neural networks enabled him to account for effects of which I am not aware. He refers to 'dynamic equations' in his response to Snyder, even though his articles in _BJ Review_ only presented static ones. He also mentions a narrowing of the count distribution the deeper into the segment we go, as well as a statistical breakdown occurring when only a small number of cards remain, so that it is important never to divide the running count by less than some minimum fraction of a deck when calculating the true count. It does appear that by limiting the reduction in the true-count divisor, he is in some way allowing for the possibility that his best guess has changed, part way through the segment.

    This controversy aside, I think it is safe to say that in the absence of some more sophisticated method, such as may possibly be provided by Goren's neural networks approach, the tracker should stick either to the NRS formula or the 'Constant TC' approach when faced with incomplete information."

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