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Thread: An entertainign story from last night, power of ace side count.

  1. #14


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    Quote Originally Posted by RCJH View Post
    If you did this on double deck in Northeast Oklahoma, you're already toast. If I were you, I'd sick to the shoe in those locations.
    Maybe, I did this at a casino i never play at, and was there for less than 20 mins,. my regulars have never seen anything but a hidden spread, and I've kept a low profile.

  2. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post
    Maybe, I did this at a casino i never play at, and was there for less than 20 mins,. my regulars have never seen anything but a hidden spread, and I've kept a low profile.
    What exactly do you mean by "a hidden spread"?

  3. #16


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    Quote Originally Posted by NB10 View Post
    What exactly do you mean by "a hidden spread"?
    along the lines of 1x2units, or 2x2 units off the top (if 3players or more) spreading to 2x4units, or 1x5units, and then dropping to 1x1unit playall or wong out 30% of the time in when tc<3

  4. #17


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    I was unrated when i did this and at a location where no pitbosses or players know me, i MAY be ok

  5. #18
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No

    RCJH, +1 Post #11.
    That was a great post!
    Comprehensive too.
    Last edited by ZenMaster_Flash; 08-19-2017 at 06:10 AM.

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post
    along the lines of 1x2units, or 2x2 units off the top (if 3players or more) spreading to 2x4units, or 1x5units, and then dropping to 1x1unit playall or wong out 30% of the time in when tc<3
    There are certainly other methods which do not include wonging out. Think dynamic in a heads up game played over 4 hours - very very recently.

  7. #20


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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post
    along the lines of 1x2units, or 2x2 units off the top (if 3players or more) spreading to 2x4units, or 1x5units, and then dropping to 1x1unit playall or wong out 30% of the time in when tc<3
    Why do you start with more than your minimum bet of 1 unit if the house edge is still against you at the start of a shoe? Does this not cost a lot of EV?

    Would Wonging out at a TC<3 not mean leaving a lot of shoe games early given it's likely to take quite a bit of time to get to a +3 TC?

  8. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by NB10 View Post
    Why do you start with more than your minimum bet of 1 unit if the house edge is still against you at the start of a shoe? Does this not cost a lot of EV?

    Would Wonging out at a TC<3 not mean leaving a lot of shoe games early given it's likely to take quite a bit of time to get to a +3 TC?
    I almost entirely DD, starting at 2 units is good because the first hand either the RC stays flat (no advantage) falls (had the advantage on the hand) or increases (now I want 2units out anyway). If the deck is really good then i can just leave one win out and already be at 4 units without ever appearing to increase wager by parlaying that win.

    First hand of DD usually gets more pit attention and they see me at a base bet of 2units instead of 1 unit, so the spread appears less.

  9. #22


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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post
    I almost entirely DD, starting at 2 units is good because the first hand either the RC stays flat (no advantage) falls (had the advantage on the hand) or increases (now I want 2units out anyway). If the deck is really good then i can just leave one win out and already be at 4 units without ever appearing to increase wager by parlaying that win.

    First hand of DD usually gets more pit attention and they see me at a base bet of 2units instead of 1 unit, so the spread appears less.
    Would you use this method in 6/8 deck shoe games or is it not really appropriate since TC doesn't change that fast?

  10. #23


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    Quote Originally Posted by NB10 View Post
    Would you use this method in 6/8 deck shoe games or is it not really appropriate since TC doesn't change that fast?
    Works for 6 deck no problem. Different theoretical approaches on how to maximize spread. Suppose you want a 20-1 soread with a $5 unit, I.e 5-100. You're afraid The puts in the pit won't like that, so you start with $10.after a few hands, you bet $100, which essentially appears as a 10-1 spread. Keep tour $10 opening bet down to -1 or -2, then drop to $5.

    Analyze this approach in CVCX, plug in the rules, bankroll, spread etc. CVCX will give you optimal spread based inputed parameters. There is then the column for custom bets, where you can play with the approach on mins that I have syfpggested, and the impact in your overall EV. There us a small cost.

    Or, no cost, simply more EV, if your bankroll is strong, and the approach helps you get away with a far larger max. Lots if ways to look at this.

  11. #24


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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post
    I almost entirely DD, starting at 2 units is good because the first hand either the RC stays flat (no advantage)
    That was a disadvantage situation starting, and remained a disadvantage when the RC remained flat, determined by the up front house edge. Counters who bet big, or use large spreads should definitely use that method occasionally, for cover.


    Quote Originally Posted by NB10 View Post
    Would you use this method in 6/8 deck shoe games or is it not really appropriate since TC doesn't change that fast?

    NB10, are you jumping the gun here? What is your level of play, and how does it compare with the other players who play at the same casino? Is the casino a real sweat shop? What is your spread, and what is the up front house edge you are playing against? The higher the up front house edge is, makes it much more difficult to overcome, and the higher your level of play gets, there is a greater chance that you are being watched, and the more cover you will need. If you are a small nickel bettor playing those 6/8 deck games, you very well may need no cover at all, if you do not play long sessions. Either way I do not recommend you play on tables with large up front house edges, if that is your only choice do not play. Find another hobby, or save up your money, while improving your game at home, and eventually find a better place to play.


    In another recent thread on cover play Stealth made a great post which included these two quotes:


    "Never have I seen a surveillance report that says, "this person is an AP because he uses XXXX count". Hell, the majority of pit people could not recognize a cover play involving an index!

    The MAJORITY of people in the databases are there for BET SPREADS. I contend this should be your first area of attack if looking for cover strategies."


    I agree with Stealth's theory on this. Now I can see you are concerned about using cover, limiting spread use and not being thrown out, all a good thing, but you better have a good reason. If the place is a sweat shop with horrible rules, and is going to watch your every move, do not concern yourself so much with an act , do what you need to do, hit em hard and run while playing unrated or better yet, avoid, and find a better place to play. Now if you find a casino that you value where you feel is worth keeping, using a grinding approach can get the job done without showing too much spread. You might ask how this can be done? Well start with the house rules, the better they are the less of a deficit you need to make up, result less spread required, and has less variance. Avoid as many negative TC hands as possible, "Wonging" is one of the best ways to increase EV, and helps with less spread required and has less variance. Play off hours when it is slower, and you are able to move around a little bit. Always search for the best pen, and avoid the poor. For starters, you better know that sweet 16, and fab 4. Do good scouting, and be very observant on all things going on. Please do not frequent the same casino often.
    Last edited by BoSox; 08-19-2017 at 03:25 PM.

  12. #25


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    That was a disadvantage situation starting, and remained a disadvantage when the RC remained flat, determined by the up front house edge. Counters who bet big, or use large spreads should definitely use that method occasionally, for cover.

    yes its disadvantage off the top, 2x2units but its worth it to have two hands if/when no aces come out and more than 2 players at the table because where i play you cant spread to two hands mid shoe on DD. If no surplus aces and no +count then im dropping to one hand 1x1unit, or if deplated aces but still TC+3 then im going 1x3units, and so on

  13. #26


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    That was a disadvantage situation starting, and remained a disadvantage when the RC remained flat, determined by the up front house edge. Counters who bet big, or use large spreads should definitely use that method occasionally, for cover.





    NB10, are you jumping the gun here? What is your level of play, and how does it compare with the other players who play at the same casino? Is the casino a real sweat shop? What is your spread, and what is the up front house edge you are playing against? The higher the up front house edge is, makes it much more difficult to overcome, and the higher your level of play gets, there is a greater chance that you are being watched, and the more cover you will need. If you are a small nickel bettor playing those 6/8 deck games, you very well may need no cover at all, if you do not play long sessions. Either way I do not recommend you play on tables with large up front house edges, if that is your only choice do not play. Find another hobby, or save up your money, while improving your game at home, and eventually find a better place to play.


    In another recent thread on cover play Stealth made a great post which included these two quotes:


    "Never have I seen a surveillance report that says, "this person is an AP because he uses XXXX count". Hell, the majority of pit people could not recognize a cover play involving an index!

    The MAJORITY of people in the databases are there for BET SPREADS. I contend this should be your first area of attack if looking for cover strategies."


    I agree with Stealth's theory on this. Now I can see you are concerned about using cover, limiting spread use and not being thrown out, all a good thing, but you better have a good reason. If the place is a sweat shop with horrible rules, and is going to watch your every move, do not concern yourself so much with an act , do what you need to do, hit em hard and run while playing unrated or better yet, avoid, and find a better place to play. Now if you find a casino that you value where you feel is worth keeping, using a grinding approach can get the job done without showing to much spread. You ask how this can be done? Well start with the house rules, the better they are the less of a deficit you need to make up, result less spread required, and has less variance. Avoid as many negative TC hands as possible, "Wonging" is one of the best ways to increase EV, and helps with less spread required and has less variance. Play off hours when it is slower, and you are able to move around a little bit. Always search for the best pen, and avoid the poor. For starters, you better know that sweet 16, and fab 4. Do good scouting, and be very observant on all things going on. Please do not frequent the same casino often.
    Perhaps I am getting ahead of myself. My thinking is that I should try to practice cover play at home first, in particular bet spread since that seems the most obvious indicator.

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