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Thread: Wonging

  1. #1


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    Wonging

    Ok, so I know that I am still learning and probably about to change the count that I have spent some time on practicing but I am still building a bankroll and I am young so its all ok. I have a question on wonging, I have read a lot about it but was just curious on how YOU do it or use to do it. Even when I was just a ploppy and a youngish guy would stand behind me for any length of time over 20 second I would automatically think "this guy is back counting". So I mean how do you make in not look so obvious? Do you just sit down at the beginning of a shoe and wait till the count rises? Do you try to casually stand behind the table?
    Also another thing is when playing on slower nights as to reduce the amount of players at a table I would think that makes you stand out even more. However on a weekend night I can see you getting away with it but then most tables are full or 4/5 seats are taken.
    I just hear people say "oh just wong in and out" the "out" part I get is easier but the "in" part seems a lot more difficult without being pegged for a counter than many make it out to be.

    I know, I know, I have not even played for the first time in a live casino. So I may be getting the cart before the horse. However I am the type that thinks ahead and likes to plan and think about all the details way before it happens. I like to have plan B, C, D thought out so I am not a deer in headlights.... Sorry for the expressions, I am from the south so... its what we do

  2. #2


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    Just try it. Watch, enter. At the lower limit tables, you can get away with it.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    It looks obvious. Sometimes you can get a good vantage point from roulette or craps where you don't look obvious. It helps if you don't stare at the BJ tables and maybe turn away from them some. Sometimes sitting at the table works well too, but not always.

    My best defense when wonging in is my bet size. When I wong in around table minimum, and don't really raise my bet much after, they generally leave me alone. A pit boss knew exactly what I was up to and was approaching my table to back me off. He looked at my bet, then at me, back at my bet and laughed. He laughed so hard he put his hands on his knees. Needless to say, he never bothered me again all night.

    The bad part of wonging in is they know what you're doing. When you move up to green chipping, they won't unlearn who you are. They know you're a counter and no amount of camo or cover will save you.


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  4. #4


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    My best defense when wonging in is my bet size. When I wong in around table minimum, and don't really raise my bet much after, they generally leave me alone. A pit boss knew exactly what I was up to and was approaching my table to back me off. He looked at my bet, then at me, back at my bet and laughed. He laughed so hard he put his hands on his knees. Needless to say, he never bothered me again all night.

    The bad part of wonging in is they know what you're doing. When you move up to green chipping, they won't unlearn who you are. They know you're a counter and no amount of camo or cover will save you.


    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

    "They know what you are doing", "They know you are a counter"... Fact is that everybody has heard about counting, some have seen YouTube, others have seen stuff online. The casinos see counters all the time. So, it's no big deal to be identified as a counter. They don't throw you out because you are a card counter. They throw you out IF they can determine you are an effective counter (means identifying your bet spread, deviations, etc) and this takes time and stacks in front of you.

    The newbie need not worry about sitting down at Tc2 with a $20 bet.

  5. #5
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    +1 X 2

    Good feedback from Three and Fenix.

  6. #6


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    A lot of ploppies show up to a table and watch a couple rounds before sitting. Nothing unusual about that. So I might approach my first few rounds of observation that way. If the count nears +1, I'll sit down and cover 2 spots at minimum bets and go on from there. I find that many shoes that achieve +1 early in the shoe go on to a nice high count later.

    Then there's the wonging style of Nathaniel Tilton (in "The Blackjack Life") where their 2-man team approach was only to enter a shoe upon achieving a TC of +3 with at least 3 decks left to play. I would guess that approach greatly shortened his playing career.

  7. #7


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    Players who play strictly 6 and 8 deck shoe games better find ways not to be playing a play all situation. Or otherwise, they better be prepared for plenty of volatility. Wonging is essential not only for some new players with small bankrolls, and helps players keep their spread more reasonable, which also helps from being spotted. Lets look at both sides of the equation. Plenty of players say that they try to avoid various wonging methods as they do not want the risk of being detected, fine that is their choice. Players that take this route often have a stronger counting system that has a better PE that enables them to do this. Regardless of which system you use it is in my opinion that just taking a seat and parking your ass, and playing through whatever situation is not the way to play shoe games and also makes it easier for the eye to take a better look at your play.

    So I think it is in every ones interest to learn some wonging styles. I use the Hi Lo count and I will not say everything I do but I use numerous "more likely all" variations of wonging that I feel is necessary to win, and I am not afraid to use them. I also make up the higher gain "just straight counting" that better systems gain just by playing until conditions deteriorate, and by blending in, I will not say more on this last part, which is easy to figure out anyway.


    Players who think that they can get away without detection by playing all hands, in a shoe game and have a nice continuous positive EV until lifetime casino tolerance is reached is not being serious " of course there are very rare situations out there that no one talks about". Regardless level one counters do not have the option to play this way, even if they are rich, the spread required to beat the house would get you thrown out just like ZMF says. Level one counters can not play all, and sacrifice spread at the same time, as the two terms are just not synonymous. The reason that I believe wonging is necessary to winning is mainly because of trying to overcome negative true count frequencies, especially for games with bad rules.

    I wrote the two quotes below on this board on 01/13/16

    Here is one example of a good game with 83.3% pen taken from BJ Attack 3rd Edition by Don Schlesinger, in chapter 10, "The World's Greatest Blackjack Simulation" table 10.60 on page245
    5.0/6 H17 DAS
    The TC Freq. % at <0 is 45.21%, at a TC of 0 is 25.91% taken together that is 71.12% of the time you are at a distinct disadvantage, and it gets worse. The TC Freq.% at TC of +1 is 10.74% where even if you know the Illustrious 18 you are at a very tiny edge, almost a break even point. Adding this total with the other two TC Freq. you are now at 81.86% of the time you will either be chasing losses or spinning your wheels. Still think the game is easy?

    I would like to add, the book I took this from is simply a work of art, that is loaded with knowledge that will pay for itself thousands of times over its bargain price.
    Last edited by BoSox; 08-11-2017 at 10:29 AM.

  8. #8


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    Thanks for the kind words at the end. Always appreciated.

    Don

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdaddy View Post
    I would guess that approach greatly shortened his playing career.
    You would be wrong.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    My recommendation is to use every wonging style but use them unpredictably. You might wong in once, White Rabbit a lot, and stay through crap if you are winning or nearing the shuffle point. The point is don't be predictable. They can't go this is what you are doing if you mix things up enough that you really have no pattern.
    I agree with the above quote, mix it up and don't be predictable, that is the way I play.


    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    Like I said before you are really exposing the size of your spread if you make your lowest bet a lot. You want your lowest bet to be made very infrequently. Like if your bet range is $25 to $750 and you make the $25 bet most frequently you won't get away with that top bet very long.

    Three I do not know if you are trying to be funny here or not with that 1 to 30 spread? I do not find it funny as I use the wonging approach to cut down on spreads. Is that how you think I play? The reason I wong is to avoid a lot of the risk associated with using large spreads, not to mention the heat that comes with them. Besides that would not fit my act at all. Now, I am not talking about the size of the max bet itself that I put out there is often a little bigger bet than what you stated, but I am talking about spreads, which is a completely different thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    If you are more commonly betting more and reserving the $25 bet for when you have no advantage and are losing your spread looks more like 50 or $75 to $750. After doing that for a while it may dawn on you that if you are going to make the $25 bet then you probably should be leaving the table altogether and never showing a $25 bet.

    Again I do not use spreads like that. When I do show my max bet in a shoe I will not show my minimum bet again in the same shoe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    An excellent demonstration of why you need to work on that 1:4 ratio of good situations to bad situations. You start leaving the bad situations and you find more good situations so you work on that ratio from both reducing the bad and increasing the good situations. The result is a doubly powerful impact on the ratio.
    Absolutely! Like I said, there are more ways to skin a cat.
    Last edited by BoSox; 08-11-2017 at 03:51 PM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    When able to wong, I only show my innocent looking spread. When playing heads up sometimes I use a 1:20 or 1:30 spread. The other day I only used a 1:16, but I didn't feel they could tolerate much more and I really don't want to burn that store. 5$ S17 87% pen <3. I almost always look like I'm using my innocent looking spread, but sometimes I make bets outside of it. It's not as effective as a true 1:30 spread, but it's certainly more effective than the small one I'm attempting to present.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    Thanks for the kind words at the end. Always appreciated.

    Don
    Don, yes, you give me the gears about my typos - yes, I shoot sarcastuc retorts back from the time. Simp,e facts, if I may be concise - you're a fucking genius, meant in the most respectful terms. Thank you for your work(s) of art.

    Just fir consistency, I'm not going to correct the typos.

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