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Thread: Cover play

  1. #66


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    I have to agree with Bosox on this one. I think everyone can learn Hiopt2 but I don't think everyone has the work ethic to learn Hiopt2. With enough practice anyone could do it but many would not put in the effort required for them and play prematurely and get killed due to errors and not understanding how to use the count properly.

    Now to Hilo. Hilo is a great count if you play to its strengths and away from its weaknesses. One of its main weaknesses is playing strategy weakness. Most of this is in negative TC's. By wonging to play the fewest negative TC situations, as Bosox implored, you eliminate most of Hilo's playing weaknesses while playing to it's strength Betting Correlation. I am not keen on playing more hours because the mistake most people make is they play too many hours. You want to increase rounds played not hours played. If you are more selective about what you play you will play a lot more rounds in less time than if you try to get in more hours. You get payed in proportion to rounds played not hours played. One guy playing 3 hours at a50 rounds per hour plays 150 rounds in 3 hours. The other guy hunting faster games might only play 1.5 hours in the same 3 hour period but he plays at 200 rounds per hour so he gets in 300 rounds in the same 3 hours. Thats twice the EV. Even if he is only playing 150 rounds per hour he plays 225 rounds or 50% more EV. So if you substitute being pickier about what you play so you can play more rounds to playing more hours the advice makes more sense. Obviously if you already play all the time with fast conditions playing more hours is diminishing returns like the argument some make against learning more indices. It is just not worth it.
    This is something many just don't get about BJ. The rules Bosox plays allows so much more to be done by the player that he sees it is a waste of time playing without them. A wise choice for any count but even wiser with counts with more decision variance like level 1 counts and fully ace reckoned counts (this doesn't include ace compromise counts). Hilo is both.
    This and BoSox's post are really helpful.

    A couple of questions on your Wonging point and how it relates to increasing the number of rounds played: Wonging is obviously a great way to lower variance and increase EV, and the most likely conditions for maximising number of rounds is when the casino is relatively quiet/you play heads up. How do you Wong in and out of a heads up game? Surely that sets off all manner of red flags? And if it is heads up, you can't Wong back in since no one else is playing, so you would basically Wong out, then come back when they have shuffled which looks rather suspicious I would have thought?

  2. #67


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    Quote Originally Posted by NB10 View Post
    How do you Wong in and out of a heads up game?

    You need to find a entire pit that that is relatively slow and their is always a fresh shoe available. Although you need an act just like Three said, this is important. Personally, I prefer playing with one other player to help eat up cards.

  3. #68


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    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox View Post
    You need to find a entire pit that that is relatively slow and their is always a fresh shoe available. Although you need an act just like Three said, this is important. Personally, I prefer playing with one other player to help eat up cards.
    I normally prefer heads up, or at most, one other play. I recently came across a game where I determined I was far better off with one other. Interesting house rule of burning dealer hole card with all players busting. Heads up, I determined it was better to make an inferior play, in order to see dealer hole card. With a second player, it allowed me to make the oreferred play, seeing, in most cases, dealer hole card.

  4. #69


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    You can leave the table for any number of reasons. As long as they pull the cards from the shoe you can get a shuffle this way. The thing you have to realize is there are only so many times this will work and you need the "act" to do it. You can go to the bathroom, check restaurant menus, get something to eat, get something to drink, try your luck at VP or some other game, take a cell call and move away for privacy, and anything else you can think of but you need to make it look like you are actually doing something so if the EITS is watching you they see you had a reason for leaving. If they don't give a shuffle when the table empties you can't do anything but play through or leave. Odds are low that others will play an empty table, especially one that is not a fresh shoe so casinos realize it is plus EV to pull the cards and shuffle. The ones that are so paranoid that they don't just lose a lot of money to nobody playing for long periods of time.



    Like I said above it can if not done properly.

    Yes. Make sure you sell it by actually doing something else and what leads up to it. Checking the time to make a phone call, asking about restaurants to leave to check menus, saying you wish you could get another drink but you can't hold anymore if you use a bathroom break. You get the idea.
    Thanks, so make sure you have an excuse and make it visible and obvious to them.

    Do you, or BoSox or Freightman, have a preferred time of day when you like to play? I would have thought the less busy the better for speed purposes, so something like very early morning would be optimal? Eg 7/8am

  5. #70


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    Hit em where they ain't. Look for weak spots, you will find them, especially if they are an arrogant bunch of idiots.
    Last edited by BoSox; 08-13-2017 at 11:27 AM.

  6. #71


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    Quote Originally Posted by NB10 View Post
    Thanks, so make sure you have an excuse and make it visible and obvious to them.

    Do you, or BoSox or Freightman, have a preferred time of day when you like to play? I would have thought the less busy the better for speed purposes, so something like very early morning would be optimal? Eg 7/8am
    I pay attention to my own body rhythms - which for me means ignoring graveyard shifts where you will be likely to enjoy more heads up opportunities. In a venue which is open all hours, before breakfast is often good. Beyond that, the higher the minimum bet is, usually, the lower the table population. Having said that, I recall the old Hilton in Vegas with a full $25 table, and an empty $5.00 table with a high maximum. Good story there with my massive $100 buy in, with absolutely everything going right, but I'll save that for another time.
    Last edited by Freightman; 08-13-2017 at 11:11 AM. Reason: Change minimum to maximum

  7. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypercube View Post
    Hilo is the worst for beginners because, becuase beginners have small bankrolls and hilo has huge variance compared to a strong count system like hi opt2!
    Beginners who try to start with HO2 will soon have no bankroll to play with because that count is likely too complex for them. Read Revere, he was adamant about starting with a simpler count while learning to play blackjack in the casino. Casino comportment is more important than the count one uses anyway, and always will be.


    As far as simple counts making it easy for the pit, when I went out west last year to play 1D games I could tell if a person was a counter before they played a hand, sometimes before they even took a seat. I saw one guy get backed off at a table after playing about 5 minutes. He was being obvious about it. I had been there for 20 minutes before he came and stayed for 10 more minutes after he left. I never got backed off the entire trip.

  8. #73


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    . Nothing about a complex count is hard. You just need to train your brain to do new easy tasks quickly and eventually without even thinking about it. Once the brain is trained the task gets easier and easier until you are not even thinking about it.

    Then comes all the non-counting stuff that is more important and requires more discipline than counting. Too many don't even realize these things are a must to master. Things like BR management, and knowing how to use the count in the casino to make money not just follow a formula, and game selection, comportment, table management, finding good conditions, etc
    Just getting rid of the extraneous bullshit to turn this into a valuable post. I would insert learning indices before bankroll management.

    Remember, it starts with baby steps.

  9. #74


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post
    You are right. In my mind learning to count includes learning indices but I don't know how others would take it so I should have been a little more wordy so my thoughts were what was received.
    You mean - a little less wordy, and just cut to the chase.

  10. #75


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    Quote Originally Posted by Three View Post

    Then comes all the non-counting stuff that is more important and requires more discipline than counting. Too many don't even realize these things are a must to master. Things like BR management, and knowing how to use the count in the casino to make money not just follow a formula, and game selection, comportment, table management, finding good conditions, etc
    BR management - do you mean things like optimal BR size and betting ramps, risk of ruin, etc? Are there any resources you'd recommend to learn and master this part of the game?

    "Knowing how to use the count in the casino..." - can you expand/give further thoughts on this?

    Thanks for the advice so far.

  11. #76


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    I normally prefer heads up, or at most, one other play. I recently came across a game where I determined I was far better off with one other. Interesting house rule of burning dealer hole card with all players busting. Heads up, I determined it was better to make an inferior play, in order to see dealer hole card. With a second player, it allowed me to make the oreferred play, seeing, in most cases, dealer hole card.
    Freightman,

    I have heard of this rule, but never seen it in person. How did you decide which plays were worth giving up? How much EV would seeing an extra card be worth? I assume you are speaking of making plays that are basically a toss up anyway. If not, I would think the better move would be to always play two or three hands if there is no one else at the table. This is not a criticism, I just want to know where my thinking is off.

  12. #77


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    T3 spent a lot of words about counts and counting and then he followed up with.."Then comes all the non-counting stuff that is more important and requires more discipline than counting. Too many don't even realize these things are a must to master. Things like BR management, and knowing how to use the count in the casino to make money not just follow a formula, and game selection, comportment, table management, finding good conditions, etc"

    Damn right, this is "more important" and really, the count you use is almost irrelevant in today's game. The successful HiLo players are successful because of what T3 says in his last paragraph above. Don't fret the count.

  13. #78


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    Quote Originally Posted by NB10 View Post
    BR management - do you mean things like optimal BR size and betting ramps, risk of ruin, etc? Are there any resources you'd recommend to learn and master this part of the game?

    Blackjack ATTACK, 3rd Edition by Don Schlesinger is a must to own, as well as a necessity if you intend to take the game seriously.

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