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Thread: 17 v 10 H17 Question

  1. #14


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    A fair point, I was referring to the Hi-Lo index as IIRC that is what abc4000 uses.

  2. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    Even in regular blackjack the late surrender index for 17 v T is incredibly high. So given that you are playing pontoon, where surrendering is even less attractive than normal (surrender favours situations where there are more ten value cards) it seems like the true count would have to be out of this world to make surrendering a more profitable (less unprofitable) play.
    Makes sense. I still feel a little uneasy about it though. It's not the strongest doubled hand to have. Kinda leaves you regretting not forfeiting it, especially when you have a larger bet out.

    Regarding surrender/forfeit in Pontoon/SP21, it actually is incredibly powerful. It increases your win rate by almost 50% when applied correctly iirc.

  3. #16


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    In normal blackjack the expected return for standing 17 v T is -.419. So this is a 20% improvement over surrendering which is of course -.5. Presumably the disparity between standing and surrendering (which is really what you are looking at with a forfeit) is even stronger for pontoon because in blackjack we are less inclined to surrender at negative counts. Of course you will sometimes hit 17 v T in pontoon because of the bonuses but that is irrelevant for the double down rescue / stay consideration which you are talking about.

  4. #17
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    Tthree's index looks quite correct but
    a H17 game would alter that
    as will the NHC rule. I assume that it is ENHC and dealer BJ's are
    fatal to your entire bet.

  5. #18


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post

    Tthree's index looks quite correct but
    a H17 game would alter that
    as will the NHC rule. I assume that it is ENHC and dealer BJ's are
    fatal to your entire bet.
    It's OBBO. So only splits are penalised. Because of OBBO you dont split A,A vs 10/A according to basic anyway.

  6. #19


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    That's interesting, in regular ENHC blackjack AA v T is a split.

  7. #20


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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    That's interesting, in regular ENHC blackjack AA v T is a split.
    This is Pontoon with 1 card only on ace splits and no ace resplit. The WoO page explains the NHC strategy behind it. And often a pair of aces is the best foundation to pull a multi card 21 or 5 card trick/charlie to get the bonus payouts.

    'Tis a strange beast..

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