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Thread: CASINO DESIGNED AND MANAGED BY AP's

  1. #14


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    On a side note- I was actually pitched the idea of starting an underground casino from a former MGM pit manager. He mentioned the startup would be 100k x(3 partners)

    What is actually a reasonable number to start up an operation like this?

  2. #15


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    I'd have 6D PA rules with ASM and 90% pen.

    It's been shown time and time again that shallow pen hurts the casino more than potential APs.

    As far as AP policy, I'd just let them play. The casino will be so popular amongst civilians because they recognize that their money lasts longer there that the place will always be too crowded to be worth an APs time.

    Minimums will be mostly $15 or $25 on the main floor. $50 and up in high limit room. Maximums $2,500 main floor and $5,000 high limit.

    LL10 or KB for side bets on main floor. No side bets in high limit.

  3. #16


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    "The casino will be so popular amongst civilians because they recognize that their money lasts longer there that the place will always be too crowded to be worth an APs time."

    You're dreaming. Have you seen Las Vegas recently? You really think that offering good rules entices imbeciles to play? The same morons who think 6:5 is better than 3:2 because
    6 > 3? You really have to be kidding.

    Don

  4. #17
    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    "The casino will be so popular amongst civilians because they recognize that their money lasts longer there that the place will always be too crowded to be worth an APs time."

    You're dreaming. Have you seen Las Vegas recently? You really think that offering good rules entices imbeciles to play? The same morons who think 6:5 is better than 3:2 because
    6 > 3? You really have to be kidding.

    Don
    Hooray! It's Howdy Dowdy time!

  5. #18


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    Quote Originally Posted by hitthat16 View Post
    I'd have 6D PA rules with ASM and 90% pen.

    It's been shown time and time again that shallow pen hurts the casino more than potential APs.
    Nah. It is a myth created by AP in hope that casinos offer deep penetration. The truth is that casinos get almost the same thing from the ploppies no matter the penetration is 90% or 75%. The penetration only matters to counters.

  6. #19
    Senior Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    Nah. It is a myth created by AP in hope that casinos offer deep penetration. The truth is that casinos get almost the same thing from the ploppies no matter the penetration is 90% or 75%. The penetration only matters to counters.
    That's not Zender 's sentiment.

  7. #20


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    Wow. Aside from Don's comments, nothing here makes sense....

    If I was operating a casino, especially one outside Nevada, all tables would be CSM, including Spanish 21. An exception may be made for the high limit room.... maybe. Or maybe not.

    Perhaps one in twenty ploppies wouldn't like the CSMs- and for the "smarter" ones in that group, there would be surrender and S17 on at least some tables. If competition (other casinos) allow specific rule variants, like resplitting aces, that would be allowed on at least some tables as well. No chance I would allow ASMs- why deal with counters? Let them go to my competitors- such as hitthat's and BJGenius's casinos. :-)

    A party pit would be in operation most evenings- or at least on more evenings than my competition. All tables at such pits would be H17, and consideration would be given to having 6:5 there as well. In Atlantic City, for example, there are no party pits on non-Saturday nights that I know of, since Revel (which had dancers every night) closed (WWW having music and a DJ away from their pit, doesn't count). I have many friends who enjoy playing blackjack more when having it dealt by someone attractive- and these pits tend to bring people who may be more loose with their money.

    As a free-market fan, I would approve of dealers keeping their own tips, but realize that may not work in practice. But if it could, that would get my vote- and would lead to friendlier dealers (as is the case in poker, I find). Approval would not be required for cash transactions under $500- a note would be made on the table regarding what players bought in for, and the floor can key in the info a few minutes later. Coloring for denominations of black or less would be the same (anything to speed up the game).

  8. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by All Clear View Post

    If I was operating a casino, especially one outside Nevada, all tables would be CSM, including Spanish 21. An exception may be made for the high limit room.... maybe. Or maybe not.
    .
    Should be:

    "If I was operating a casino in Las Vegas Strip, all tables would be CSM, including Spanish 21. "

    You can only pull it off there because of the concentration of tourists.

  9. #22


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGenius007 View Post
    Nah. It is a myth created by AP in hope that casinos offer deep penetration. The truth is that casinos get almost the same thing from the ploppies no matter the penetration is 90% or 75%. The penetration only matters to counters.
    When you have a business that makes money by (volume of rounds X average bet X percentage house edge) then you always want to optimize more rounds per hour. Penetration is very costly to the casinos.

    The loss of rounds to the casino industry is by far more damaging financially then AP play.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  10. #23
    Senior Member Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    How would gaming be designed to be successful?
    I would offer frequent, small incentives to get people through the door. An example would be earn 100 points get a free buffet. A few AP's would get cheap food, the ploppies would start playing for the free food and not stop until they lost more than the free buffet they wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    What would your blackjack offerings be? Please "make your case" for your recommendation.
    6D H17, DAS, RSA, Ls, 85% pen, no spreading to more hands mid-shoe, with table limits 5-200$ on the main floor. I would have one or two side bet tables with multiple side bets, like as many as I could stuff on it for the side bet loving ploppies. I think I'd offer lucky ladies, lucky lucky, the bust one, and match the dealer. The other tables would not have side bets. I don't know if I'd do hand shuffle or ASM, depends on if the time saved is worth the expensive price to rent the ASM. If my casino was in an area I might have enough people wanting to bet more, I'd have a high limit room of 25-1000$, same rules or maybe S17 with no Ls. I'd have good rules to keep the ploppies happy and coming to my casino. They'll lose their money slower, so they'll be more inclined to come. Decent pen offered because unless I have a hoard of proficient counters at my tables day in and day out, which is very unlikely, the pen will make more for the casino due to less time spent shuffling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    What other things would you do that is different from the current masses?
    I wouldn't take countermeasures against counters on the main floor. In the high limit, I would cap them at 300$ aggregate bet. As long as people are on slots, the casino is making money. The table rules will keep the locals happy and the counters and trackers from making too big of a dent in the bottom line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    How would you pay your dealers and pit managers?
    I would not allow tokes. I would pay my employees a competitive wage with decent benefits where they wouldn't have to rely on getting players to toke them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    Why do you think these things would be profitable with suitable returns to your investors?
    The casino is still making money. The dealers make the same, just instead of it coming from the hold and the tokes, it only comes from the hold. The ploppies would have bet and lost the tokes anyway, so in the end it works out about the same. It may even be a good marketing tool. Restaurants that don't allow tips are making the news and seem to be doing well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    Do you think your financial performance would match or exceed current casinos with a financially normalized comparison?
    I think it would match my competitors, unless my casino was the far better choice. If every other casino had terrible rewards clubs and 6/5 tables, mine would do better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    Do you think our casino "friends" who toll these pages will find these answers helpful, insightful or a joke?
    I think there would be a mix. The ones who detest AP's would find this a joke, no matter how meaningful. Some might find it helpful or insightful if we come up with some unique marketing ideas. I hope they'll truly evaluate the cost of everything and make informed decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    Do you think casinos have proforma estimates for the cost of countermeasures against AP's?
    With as paranoid as some of them are, I doubt it. If the casinos worried half as much about the AP's selling them countermeasures as they do the AP's on the tables, they would lose a lot less money. No matter how useful snake oil has the potential to be, it is still snake oil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    Are there other relevant questions?
    If I owned a casino, are there any laws against playing at it?
    Can a pit boss kick me out of a casino if I own it?
    Can I be trespassed from my own property?

  11. #24


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    Is there any evidence that ASM's are more popular than CSM's with ploppies? Is it not true that all tables at Macau are CSM's? Why not use all CSM's with most all rules favoring customers so casino edge is just about .30 or even lower and advertise that casino has best BJ odds?

    I think the only reason there are ASM's are because casinos want to attract wannabe counters who are underfunded or have only basic knowledge, bound to tap out, read forums, keep trying again and again to win and fail.

  12. #25


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    Is there any evidence that ASM's are more popular than CSM's with ploppies? Is it not true that all tables at Macau are CSM's? Why not use all CSM's with most all rules favoring customers so casino edge is just about .30 or even lower and advertise that casino has best BJ odds?

    I think the only reason there are ASM's are because casinos want to attract wannabe counters who are underfunded or have only basic knowledge, bound to tap out, read forums, keep trying again and again to win and fail.
    i can confirm Macau all CSM- they used to have shoe by request only from known whales- perhaps still possible.

    The big money maker in Macau is bacc though, blackjack is not popular at all and viewed as a casino game there.

  13. #26


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    CASINO DESIGNED AND MANAGED BY AP's

    One of the more interesting topics lately.
    I'm a little surprised at how concerned everyone is about catching the AP. I think casinos spend WAY to much time worrying about card counters, in regards to their return on investment. Cheaters? Sure, give them the boot. I think we're forgetting this casino is managed by APs. All we have to do is find the greedy card counter, and remind them to be polite.
    Also, I don't think it's coincidence that Pennsylvania has he most gaming revenue (outside of Nevada). They offer the best game. Ploppies love blackjack, and blackjack variants because they know they CAN be beat, not that THEY can necessarily beat them. I think you have to offer a fair game, so the ploppies come back.
    With those premises, I'd offer blackjack with these rules on the main floor: 6D S17, RSA, DAS, Surrender, with a 21+3 side bet (and the additional top bet) and 6-7 seats at the table. ASM. Minimums from 10-15 and maximums from 1000-2000. Almost one deck cut off set by notch.
    Party pit: 6D H17, CSM, otherwise same rules and a $5 -$500 min and max.
    High Limit: same rules as on the floor, but 5 seats and the side bet stays. I don't know if I'd offer 2 or 1 deck.
    I'd offer as many blackjack variants as possible. Spanish, free bet, double up, war, you name it. If it looks like blackjack, it would be there. Why? People think card games are more beatable, ergo more fair. I'd also offer a wide array of carnival games for the same reason.
    I'd have a HUGE Asian pit.
    I'd have many progressive slots. People like slots because you can get a "life changing" win, so I'd have to have slots with larger payouts.
    Dealers would be paid with a base salary plus tips. They would be eligible for merit reviews. Two reasons: what they can make through tokes is greater than what I would be able to offer as a fair salary. (Good help is expensive, and I'd think I'd need to keep labor costs in the 8-12% range, since my restaurants and hotel will probably be operating at a loss.) Second, people want to be developed. I'd spend time growing my dealers into my pit personnel, so there has to be some performance evaluation. One casino I frequent has lights on the table to measure hands / hour; I'd have that on my tables. A faster game means more revenue. I'd give longevity bonuses and discounts to my hotel and restaurants to employees. I would also try to hire all dealers as part time, for benefit requirements. (Now don't say I'm being a greedy casino operator. The cost of full time benefits for all dealers would drive my labor costs too high. I'd want to offer full time benefits to my pit personnel, so that's an added incentive for dealers to stay with me and be promoted.)
    I would outsource my hotel and restaurant operations to people who know how to run hotels and restaurants, especially in regards to running at a loss.



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