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Thread: fab 4 and standard surrender strategy

  1. #14


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    "The Basic Strategist in the 6 deck game gains 0.70% in e.v."

    You meant to write 0.07%! Those decimal places matter!

    Don


  2. #15


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    "ZMF, I believe the gain is .073% for the S 17 game."
    When dealing with rank beginners I choose to round off the figures.

    You're not reading. You're off by a factor of 10!

    Don


  3. #16


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    It's not just the expectation, although I'll gladly take any increase in EV, surrendering is also lower variance. So it is win / win, especially if you can find a nice game with ES 10 or even full ES. ES10 is a phenomenal rule especially for card counters and really accelerates your advantage in the lower true counts.

  4. #17


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    It's not just the expectation, although I'll gladly take any increase in EV, surrendering is also lower variance. So it is win / win, especially if you can find a nice game with ES 10 or even full ES. ES10 is a phenomenal rule especially for card counters and really accelerates your advantage in the lower true counts.
    It's fair to say that surrender adds a full third to your win rate. Ain't small potatoes.

  5. #18


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    Ceteris paribus, surrender typically increases the SCORE of a game by around 50%, according the hours and hours I've spent plugging different parameters into CVCX. It should not be ignored.

  6. #19


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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    It's not just the expectation, although I'll gladly take any increase in EV, surrendering is also lower variance. So it is win / win, especially if you can find a nice game with ES 10 or even full ES. ES10 is a phenomenal rule especially for card counters and really accelerates your advantage in the lower true counts.

    To further explain for beginners Meistro's123 great post:

    Just by having the surrender option available to you enables you to slightly increase " bankroll dependent" your top bet, and subsequently your spread at the same time without adding all, of the extra volatility associated with doing this without the option. On average many beginners have bankroll problems so I do not recommend for these players to increase their own minimum bet because of having the late surrender option. An example why bet $15 as your basic bet if you are at a $10 table? You are now thinking doing this change means very little, you would be WRONG big time, because it is the lower minimum bet that enables you to reach the higher spread which adds more to your EV.

  7. #20


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    Quote Originally Posted by DSchles View Post
    You're not reading. You're off by a factor of 10!

    Don, surely you jest, the man is talking about HI OPP 11 here! Don't you know that factor's of ten are meaningless with this count. Sorry ZMF, just having some fun.
    Last edited by BoSox; 06-19-2017 at 07:37 AM.

  8. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by abc4000 View Post
    the casino i always go offers s17 6d surrender game, and i spoke to few card counters, they dont like to surrender their hands even they bet big, what they do is they only stands 16 vs all dealer non bust card at any positive count,
    First, using some kind of voodoo intuition to alter known correct strategies disqualifies them as card counters. You either learn the correct plays, believe them and use them or you don't.

    You spoke to some gamblers who, apparently, do not understand that losing less is the same as winning long term in blackjack.
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  9. #22


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMaster_Flash View Post
    I fully appreciate the (unintentional) humor. You spoke to a few PLOPPIES.

    The VALUE of Late Surrender increases proportionally to the numbers of

    decks in play, but that value doesn't change by more than 0.20%

    It is worth the least in a Single Deck game.

    The Basic Strategist in the 6 deck game gains 0.70% in e.v.

    The Card Counter gains much more - depending on his bet

    spread AND how complete his set of Late Surrender indices is.

    For me, in the game described it is worth at least 0.95%

    With good penetration, I play H17 shoes with Late Surrender.


    Thanks for the advice, so do you mean i should surrender the hand accounting to fab 4 and basic strategy surrender rule



    ??? iPhone ????? Tapatalk

  10. #23


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? Yes | No
    Quote Originally Posted by abc4000 View Post
    Thanks for the advice, so do you mean i should surrender the hand accounting to fab 4 and basic strategy surrender rule



    ??? iPhone ????? Tapatalk
    This is why I said you need to read a book!

    Learn basic strategy cold. Master your counting system. Learn the indices. Do whatever the chart says at the given count. Bet according to a well defined ramp that preferably (IMO) comes from CVCX. Don't deviate for any reason.

    You are back on step one. You need to learn some basics before you can continue.

  11. #24


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    Quote Originally Posted by therefinery View Post
    This is why I said you need to read a book!

    Learn basic strategy cold. Master your counting system. Learn the indices. Do whatever the chart says at the given count. Bet according to a well defined ramp that preferably (IMO) comes from CVCX. Don't deviate for any reason

    You are back on step one. You need to learn some basics before you can continue.

    therefinery, +1, I could not agree more. Great post.

  12. #25


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    Quote Originally Posted by abc4000 View Post
    I think its a ok strategy when i play small at normal count since i only bet one unit, but when counts goes high i bet alot more, one misplay could be really costly. So any experts here give an advice maybe i should switch to fab 4 and basic surrender strategy when tc >+3 and i start bet big

    The surrender option is a very valuable option and you personally ONLY want to use it when the true count is higher than +3 and your concern is making a costly misplay, let me tell you your game is one big misplay. Under your idea you would not even use the fab4 when the plays are called for, or striking point. Good you are concerned about a costly misplay, but what you need to understand is that you "depending on playing time" would be making thousands of errors that are costing you plenty. Please buy a book and learn the game at home, without it costing you anything.
    Last edited by BoSox; 06-22-2017 at 04:39 AM.

  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by stopgambling View Post
    Have you seen a player threw cards right at the dealer and nothing happened ?
    Like this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=028oD4CEw_U

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