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Thread: Why did the pit boss take the end of the shoe?

  1. #1
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    Why did the pit boss take the end of the shoe?

    Friday night/Sat morning I was playing a local casino. I have been working at becoming an AP player and had played from 9pm, betting mostly 1-3 units. 5 O'clock rolls around and just me and another player are left at a table they want to close down, so they tell us they have seats reserved for us at another table.

    Fine, I move to another table and start making a few $ - the dealer I had played with since 11, and I know fairly well, sees me at a table across the pit. He says "hey 'Fred' I'm over here". I moved over to his table, decided it was late and I really needed to get moving along. I started betting 3 units minimum - the counted skyrockets, I'm spreading 6-18 units, doubling down and killing it. Up comes the yellow card, and the pit-boss says "let me have the rest of the shoe".

    He and another pit-boss turn their backs to the table and go through it. I ask dealer 'Joe' "what's up'? He says "I'm not allowed to talk about it". Was it heat?

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    Wait, what exactly happened? Did they go through the cutoffs and start counting them down? Or were they changing the cards or something?

    They could have been looking to see if you were counting, or they could have been looking to see if someone removed or marked cards. Were they looking at the front or the back of the cards.
    The Cash Cow.

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    If the pit is changing cards or if the table is shutting down then it is not heat. If the pit takes the remaining cards and the same cards are used or the table remains open, then yes it is heat. It's called Discard Rack Countdown (covered in my book Behind The Black Dome). Floor is trying to see what the count was instead of calling surv and asking for a review. Hope this helps.

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    I certainly would be concerned if I were you F&C. Never seen it happen quite the way you described, but I have seen pit guys start flipping through the discard rack just after I raised my wager. While, I don't know all the duties and responsibilities of the pit, but I can think of no other reason for either the scenario I mentioned, nor the one you mentioned than they want to see the makeup of the cards remaining when you raised your bet. If it were me, I would probably treat it similar to a backoff and take a short break from that location and a little longer break from that particular shift trying to stay clear of that pit guy for a while.

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    Also, it could be a bluff. Lots of floors and bosses will grab the discards and pretend to count them to see how you react.
    The Cash Cow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    Also, it could be a bluff. Lots of floors and bosses will grab the discards and pretend to count them to see how you react.
    Good point, Moo. I probably would not react at all, but would exit at that point (shuffle) anyway. I would be tempted to say something along the lines of "hey what are you doing, removing some of the Aces?" Especially if there were other players around. The casino's have procedures set up for opening tables and changing the cards to specifically show that all of the cards are there, in an effort to prove the integrity of the game. To have pit personnel handling the cards away from the table with their back turned to players and table, compromises that effort and that integrity. So as I said, I would be tempted to say something along those lines, but I wouldn't. That type of response is not beneficial as it only makes you more memorable.
    Last edited by KJ; 01-27-2013 at 03:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    Wait, what exactly happened? Did they go through the cutoffs and start counting them down? Or were they changing the cards or something?

    They could have been looking to see if you were counting, or they could have been looking to see if someone removed or marked cards. Were they looking at the front or the back of the cards.
    Couldn't tell which side, other than they were going through them. They turned their backs to me while doing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by T. Dane View Post
    If the pit is changing cards or if the table is shutting down then it is not heat. If the pit takes the remaining cards and the same cards are used or the table remains open, then yes it is heat. It's called Discard Rack Countdown (covered in my book Behind The Black Dome). Floor is trying to see what the count was instead of calling surv and asking for a review. Hope this helps.
    Exactly what happened, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by moo321 View Post
    Also, it could be a bluff. Lots of floors and bosses will grab the discards and pretend to count them to see how you react.
    Well I backed off my bet because it was a new shoe, other than that, I just asked 'Joe' what was up?
    Quote Originally Posted by KJ View Post
    I certainly would be concerned if I were you F&C. Never seen it happen quite the way you described, but I have seen pit guys start flipping through the discard rack just after I raised my wager. While, I don't know all the duties and responsibilities of the pit, but I can think of no other reason for either the scenario I mentioned, nor the one you mentioned than they want to see the makeup of the cards remaining when you raised your bet. If it were me, I would probably treat it similar to a backoff and take a short break from that location and a little longer break from that particular shift trying to stay clear of that pit guy for a while.
    I had never seen anything like it myself which was why I asked. I have my hours in over the last 20 years playing and have seen a few oddities, but not that. I'll take your advice and move around. I logged about 50 hours the last 10 days at this place.

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    Just a thought, but, wouldn't surveillance & the PB(s) be expecting him to "take a break to return later" after such heat? But if he were a regular ploppy, he would return the next day, and surely give back some of his winnings... no? (I'm not suggesting you do this, but asking the more-experienced what they think about this.)
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

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    Before I respond to a newcomers posts, I spend a minute examining the persons other posts. This way I get a feel if the person is genuine or not. I'd suggest others start doing this as well.
    Let me die in my sleep like my Grandfather.
    Not screaming in agony like his passengers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shadroch View Post
    Before I respond to a newcomers posts, I spend a minute examining the persons other posts. This way I get a feel if the person is genuine or not. I'd suggest others start doing this as well.
    I don't deny that I am fairly new to counting and made that obvious in this post. Not sure what you're getting at?

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    User is banned, content deleted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    Clarify what your spread was: 3-18? 6-18? 1-6? 1-3??
    Sorry, newbie mistake. $10 table, pretty much flat-betting quarters, but played $60-$180 when the true count went to 4-8.

    Admittedly, not properly ramping, and may not know every term there is to know, but genuine as they come. Not so sure the same can be said for everyone here (no offense to you zen, of course).

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    Wouldn't 50 hours of play in 10 days be certain to flag some trouble? Your dealer buddy Joe, didn't ease your mind much with "I'm not allowed to talk about it." If he had said "Don't worry. Nothing to do with you." I would not be worried.
    How long did it take 2 pitt bosses to go through the shoe? They can't be allowed to remove cards and return them for continued play? I would have remained for a while and maybe got help from the dealer.

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