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Thread: Don't use a player's card

  1. #1


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    Don't use a player's card

    I just got backed off at my local store and now I really regret having played with a player's card. I usually spread from 25-300 (occasionally 50-500) and followed most of Don's suggestions in BJA3: I would almost never raise a bet after losing, would only occasionally drop my bet after winning, would never jump bets and would leave after showing my max bet (whether I was winning or losing). I tipped whenever I won and occasionally when I lost. I always stood on 16v10 and would only backcount for a round or two if at all. I would, however, leave when the count reached TC-2 unless it was very near the end of the shoe. I played once or twice per week for about 2 years. This morning, I had a good shoe where I won almost $3,000 playing heads up so I left. I returned in the afternoon on a new shift but got the tap almost immediately. I was about even at the store over my career although I think their books incorrectly indicated I was up by over 5K. In retrospect, I think my only real mistake was to use a player's card. I would caution other counters to avoid their use. Sucks to be banned!

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardguy View Post
    I just got backed off at my local store and now I really regret having played with a player's card. I usually spread from 25-300 (occasionally 50-500) and followed most of Don's suggestions in BJA3: I would almost never raise a bet after losing, would only occasionally drop my bet after winning, would never jump bets and would leave after showing my max bet (whether I was winning or losing). I tipped whenever I won and occasionally when I lost. I always stood on 16v10 and would only backcount for a round or two if at all. I would, however, leave when the count reached TC-2 unless it was very near the end of the shoe. I played once or twice per week for about 2 years. This morning, I had a good shoe where I won almost $3,000 playing heads up so I left. I returned in the afternoon on a new shift but got the tap almost immediately. I was about even at the store over my career although I think their books incorrectly indicated I was up by over 5K. In retrospect, I think my only real mistake was to use a player's card. I would caution other counters to avoid their use. Sucks to be banned!
    perhaps you should have ratholed a few times, checked how much you lost on those ocassionally when you lost, argue or plead that you lost a couple of hundred more than what they had you down for and more. Often there is far more heat playing unrated than when playing with a card, they are less tolerant of your spread and you might be backed off even quicker without a card.

    if they do not report you to some database, you might get away without serious damage.

    you really cannot play without a card in your local casino or in towns with just one or two casinos. They will have noticed you and given you a name for recording purposes and might still have backed you off after tracking you as a winner. You just have to develop an act, book losing sessions, rathole, argue that they must have made a recording error, that they might have attributed $200 to someone else, often check your win/loss record and ensure it's a losing one.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    when you lost, argue or plead that you lost a couple of hundred more than what they had you down for and more..
    Argue? I think shot had been fired, can not put the bullet back to the gun even it was misfired. My 2C

  4. #4


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    I find it hard to believe they banned you because you were up $5000. That's amount of money to a casino is absolutely nothing!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by MWRIGHT13146 View Post
    I find it hard to believe they banned you because you were up $5000. That's amount of money to a casino is absolutely nothing!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Recently I know some counters got banned for winning $5000 (lifetime accumulation) in some good size casinos. In the past, 5K is just a peanut for large casinos but it seems that the tide has changed. The casinos are tightening their threshold.

    If you play Blackjack, you have to master the technique of ratholing. If pit boss and dealer are not looking, grab a few green chips into your pocket. All black chips are accounted for, unless it is a super busy Saturday. If you find a whale at your table on Saturday, then you can rathole black chips.

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by MWRIGHT13146 View Post
    I find it hard to believe they banned you because you were up $5000. That's amount of money to a casino is absolutely nothing!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    You've clearly never played in a Vegas Sweat joint.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by MWRIGHT13146 View Post
    I find it hard to believe they banned you because you were up $5000. That's amount of money to a casino is absolutely nothing!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    I agree that $5,000 is nothing to a casino. My guess is that when I won 3K in 45 minutes when the casino was relatively empty, they had nothing else to look at. They then may have reviewed film on me as well as my records to determine that I was counting (spreading two hands from $25 to $300). If I were the EITS and I saw me (or one of you) play for any significant period of time, I think I could identify a counter. Furthermore, if I thought the counter was any good, I'd prefer to bar him/her before they take much money from me. Not providing a card would make it much harder to track - not impossible, just harder.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardguy View Post
    I agree that $5,000 is nothing to a casino. My guess is that when I won 3K in 45 minutes when the casino was relatively empty, they had nothing else to look at. They then may have reviewed film on me as well as my records to determine that I was counting (spreading two hands from $25 to $300). If I were the EITS and I saw me (or one of you) play for any significant period of time, I think I could identify a counter.
    Bottom line is, if you are a player that they determine has an advantage over the house, then cumulative win has little to do with it and you are likely toast.

    I continue to stress that the EV from comps and free shit are more than offset by the loss of a playable store. Players Card = Negative EV.

    Many have to have the negative experience to believe this can happen to them....?
    Luck is nothing more than probability taken personally!

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    Bottom line is, if you are a player that they determine has an advantage over the house, then cumulative win has little to do with it and you are likely toast.

    I continue to stress that the EV from comps and free shit are more than offset by the loss of a playable store. Players Card = Negative EV.

    Many have to have the negative experience to believe this can happen to them....?
    It has not happened to me yet. I play with a players card in most places. Since they know me well now, often they don't even ask me cause they know my name and more often, because they know I have a card, there is no point denying it. Now, when I have won a few trips, they remove the room comps or reduce the "free table play", seem to revive it after a losing trip. So far, no back offs.

    I am quite sure they know I count but because I almost never stick around when up more than $500 in a session, ensure they record my losing sessions and comp me a meal, and from my act, they believe I am a wealthy retire that is not trying to make a living off BJ. An ocassionally walking away rather than playing the last round at high positive TC or reducing a bet in a positive count when pit is at table and minor tricks help.

    I got my fingers crossed.

  10. #10


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    +1. These are my views as well and thus in the 2-3 cities and about 10 casinos I get to quite often, I play rated, get comped and have not been backed off. Surprisingly, they have reduced and increased my comps after a series of wins or losses.

    Those on this forum who have not played rated in many years still ridicule those who play rated. Either they fit a profile or they played too high a spread or bet blacks. I have tried both, rated and unrated and find that in places I have played rated, they quickly ignore me...but then again, I mostly leave with a win under $1k.

  11. #11


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    Speaking of having an advantage. Is it just me or do you guys see a lot of negative shoes? I'd say that out of the last 200 shoes I've Played that's 175 have went negative TC of -2 or lower in the first 2-3 hands. I don't see many positive shoes. Is this normal??

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    Yep. Going back as if $3K a day wasn't enough for you put you in the threat category. Once they decide you are a threat rather than just a counter they act quick. Odds are you have done this before. Greed gets you the BO's every time.
    Do you think if I had waited a week to go back that would have saved me? I waited well into the next shift before returning which I assume means someone in the morning shift flagged me for later workers. My guess is that I was toast the next time I walked in whether it was that afternoon or the following month.

  13. #13


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    I've been barred while down money... sometimes it doesn't matter if you're winning or losing, just how you play

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