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Thread: Which spreadsheet or software should I use for online live BJ???

  1. #1


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    Question Which spreadsheet or software should I use for online live BJ???

    Hi guys! I just registered to this forum yesterday, so let me introduce myself and what I'm currently doing at the moment.
    I'm new to this BJ card counting thing but I've been reading some BJ counting stuff online and been testing the Hi-lo strategy counting system in online live BJ (with 50~60% penetration) for few months now. I've had 54 sessions in totally of 111 hours of playing time and winning around $13K~ in profit with 76% session win rate and $117~ hourly rate. My betting size are usually between $10 ~ $50 per box and I often play with 2-3 boxes at the same table or even multi-table (2 tables maximum). I usually observe 2-3 tables at a time and wait till the shoe become +2 or +3 before I sit down and start betting and then I sit out or leave the table once the count drop below +2. There are more than 10+ BJ tables I can choose from on that site so I can always find new tables. I know it's not a big enough simple to prove much but at least I would consider a good start especially for a newbie like me . But I'm sure there are still many things for me still to learn and improve in this game, that's why I'm here and now I have some questions below.

    1) Is it beatable with (50~60% penetration, 8 decks, no DAS, dealer stand on S17, no surrender, BJ pays 3/2, insurance pays 2/1) in a looong run in a standard online live BJ game with the strategy I mentioned above? I mean by using Hi-lo counting strategy and only bet when the shoe is +2 or above.

    2) I've heard x100 times the maximum bet size would be the ideal bankroll management I need for BJ. So currently my max bet is $50 so that would be $5K bankroll. But what if I play 3 boxes in the same table betting $50 in each box? Would that be the same or similar variance? or do I need $15K bankroll for that?

    3) How good/often do online casinos catch AP in BJ? Anyone had any bad experience like getting warned or account suspended/banned? or even not been able to withdraw winnings?

    4) Since I'm using the Hi-Low counting strategy, that means I'll need to adjust some of the play/action combined with the basic strategy chart. For example how much 'plus+ count' do I start splitting 10s vs 3,4,5,6 or how much plus+ count do I start to take insurance? When do I start/stop hitting on soft 18 vs which dealer cards? or when do I start/stop splitting 8s or do I ever double on 8 vs dealer bust card when the count are very high? etc etc...

    I want to find a software where I can type in the Hi-low or exact count and cards I'm holding vs dealer card and be able to calculate which action would be the best or more profitable in the long run. But so far I haven't been able to find the right spreadsheet/software to do so.... There is a spreadsheet/software called "Blackjack Sidekick" but their website are down already so I can't download it as that would be the kind of thing I'm looking for. Here is the video of Blackjack Sidekick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGmXJBQIzmI

    It would be appreciated if I can get some answers and advice from the pros in this forum. Thanks for reading!
    Last edited by BJ_Counter; 05-05-2017 at 07:48 PM.

  2. #2


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJ_Counter View Post
    Hi guys! I just registered to this forum yesterday, so let me introduce myself and what I'm currently doing at the moment.
    I'm new to this BJ card counting thing but I've been reading some BJ counting stuff online and been testing the Hi-lo strategy counting system in online live BJ (with 50~60% penetration) for few months now. I've had 54 sessions in totally of 111 hours of playing time and winning around $13K~ in profit with 76% session win rate and $117~ hourly rate. My betting size are usually between $10 ~ $50 per box and I often play with 2-3 boxes at the same table or even multi-table (2 tables maximum). I usually observe 2-3 tables at a time and wait till the shoe become +2 or +3 before I sit down and start betting and then I sit out or leave the table once the count drop below +2. There are more than 10+ BJ tables I can choose from on that site so I can always find new tables. I know it's not a big enough simple to prove much but at least I would consider a good start especially for a newbie like me . But I'm sure there are still many things for me still to learn and improve in this game, that's why I'm here and now I have some questions below.

    1) Is it beatable with (50~60% penetration, 8 decks, no DAS, dealer stand on S17, no surrender, BJ pays 3/2, insurance pays 2/1) in a looong run in a standard online live BJ game with the strategy I mentioned above? I mean by using Hi-lo counting strategy and only bet when the shoe is +2 or above.

    2) I've heard x100 times the maximum bet size would be the ideal bankroll management I need for BJ. So currently my max bet is $50 so that would be $5K bankroll. But what if I play 3 boxes in the same table betting $50 in each box? Would that be the same or similar variance? or do I need $15K bankroll for that?

    3) How good/often do online casinos catch AP in BJ? Anyone had any bad experience like getting warned or account suspended/banned? or even not been able to withdraw winnings?

    4) Since I'm using the Hi-Low counting strategy, that means I'll need to adjust some of the play/action combined with the basic strategy chart. For example how much 'plus+ count' do I start splitting 10s vs 3,4,5,6 or how much plus+ count do I start to take insurance? When do I start/stop hitting on soft 18 vs which dealer cards? or when do I start/stop splitting 8s or do I ever double on 8 vs dealer bust card when the count are very high? etc etc...

    I want to find a software where I can type in the Hi-low or exact count and cards I'm holding vs dealer card and be able to calculate which action would be the best or more profitable in the long run. But so far I haven't been able to find the right spreadsheet/software to do so.... There is a spreadsheet/software called "Blackjack Sidekick" but their website are down already so I can't download it as that would be the kind of thing I'm looking for. Here is the video of Blackjack Sidekick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGmXJBQIzmI

    It would be appreciated if I can get some answers and advice from the pros in this forum. Thanks for reading!
    Counter,

    Your attempt at counting online blackjack is futile. What you are experiencing is simply mathematical variance that has fallen in your favour. A beginners' trap that develops a feeling of omniscients, one that does not exist.

    As for the game(s) you are playing: the pro's here, I shall let them dissect your action. Personally, a 5-1 spread using High-Low on am 8D, nDAS, 50% penetration(YIKES!) game, you are NOT beating this game with the winnings you are posting! I calculate a -0.57% HE for the game. Also, you are wonging out in +EV counts? Why?

    Online casinos, depending on who runs them and if they are regulated by a respectable Western nations' gaming commission/board, will catch counters rather quickly as they can follow a High-Low player without effort. Consider your winnings non-existent when they "back you off".

    For question 4: You question makes no sense. Do you mean when do I make the proper index plays per count? If so, with the games you are playing, you would need MORE than the Illustrious 18!

    Honestly, if you want to beat this game, you will need perfect information to play. That is, assuming, you have time left to play.

    Hopefully, one of the pro players here can chime in and recommend any action on your part besides cashing out. That is what I would do right now!

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by dogman_1234 View Post
    Counter,

    Your attempt at counting online blackjack is futile. What you are experiencing is simply mathematical variance that has fallen in your favour. A beginners' trap that develops a feeling of omniscients, one that does not exist.

    As for the game(s) you are playing: the pro's here, I shall let them dissect your action. Personally, a 5-1 spread using High-Low on am 8D, nDAS, 50% penetration(YIKES!) game, you are NOT beating this game with the winnings you are posting! I calculate a -0.57% HE for the game. Also, you are wonging out in +EV counts? Why?

    Online casinos, depending on who runs them and if they are regulated by a respectable Western nations' gaming commission/board, will catch counters rather quickly as they can follow a High-Low player without effort. Consider your winnings non-existent when they "back you off".

    For question 4: You question makes no sense. Do you mean when do I make the proper index plays per count? If so, with the games you are playing, you would need MORE than the Illustrious 18!

    Honestly, if you want to beat this game, you will need perfect information to play. That is, assuming, you have time left to play.

    Hopefully, one of the pro players here can chime in and recommend any action on your part besides cashing out. That is what I would do right now!
    Hi dogman, thanks for your answers and advice. I appreciate your honesty as I'm only a beginner that's why I'm here to learn more about counting! But there is no need to accuse me for lying or being disrespectful.... Based on the tune of your text you seem like you're angry at me for making up some non-exist numbers or something... I swear to god I'm NOT making it up about my numbers and winnings! I can show screenshot if you don't believe me... I mean why would I even lie about such thing anyway -_-'? especially I'm here to learn and want to know the true answer, so by lying about my numbers only make it worse and I won't get to know the truth! Yes I know 50-60% pen sucks, I could find a better game on other site with 75%~80% pen but that site usually only has 2-3tables running so less table selections to choose from. But if that makes the huge difference I would change and adjust that's not a problem! Btw the site I'm currently playing is not in the US or Canada so there is no Western nations' gaming commission/board as you mentioned.

    So if I play with 75%~80% pen High-Lo 8D nDAS game and only bet when the count is +2 or better would that be beatable in the long run? and what spread do I need to make it profitable in that game?
    Also which spreadsheet or software is best for a High-lo counter?
    Last edited by BJ_Counter; 05-05-2017 at 08:41 PM.

  4. #4


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJ_Counter View Post
    Hi dogman, thanks for your answers and advice. I appreciate your honesty as I'm only a beginner that's why I'm here to learn more about counting! But there is no need to accuse me for lying or being disrespectful.... Based on the tune of your text you seem like you're angry at me for making up some non-exist numbers or something... I swear to god I'm NOT making it up about my numbers and winnings! I can show screenshot if you don't believe me... I mean why would I even lie about such thing anyway -_-'? especially I'm here to learn and want to know the true answer, so by lying about my numbers only make it worse and I won't get to know the truth! Yes I know 50-60% pen sucks, I could find a better game on other site with 75%~80% pen but that site usually only has 2-3tables running so less table selections to choose from. But if that makes the huge difference I would change and adjust that's not a problem! Btw the site I'm currently playing is not in the US or Canada so there is no Western nations' gaming commission/board as you mentioned.

    So if I play with 75%~80% pen High-Lo 8D nDAS game and only bet when the count is +2 or better would that be beatable in the long run? and what spread do I need to make it profitable in that game?
    Uh...I did NOT say you were lying. I was simply stating you were experiencing variance. It is possible to be up several thousand in the beginning. With that said, I will reiterate that with the count and spread you use with this game, you are making less than what is given. This is a warning to you, not an accusation of fabrication. Unless you have a reason to be worried about my previous post.

    Now, you stated in the above that there are sites with 75-80% penetration. What are the rules? What are the minimum and maximum wagers? How many players are there at each table? How fast are the dealers and the card readers? These are things one needs to take into account when attacking blackjack, even in the real world!

    What site are you currently betting at?

  5. #5


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    Quote Originally Posted by dogman_1234 View Post
    Uh...I did NOT say you were lying. I was simply stating you were experiencing variance. It is possible to be up several thousand in the beginning. With that said, I will reiterate that with the count and spread you use with this game, you are making less than what is given. This is a warning to you, not an accusation of fabrication. Unless you have a reason to be worried about my previous post.

    Now, you stated in the above that there are sites with 75-80% penetration. What are the rules? What are the minimum and maximum wagers? How many players are there at each table? How fast are the dealers and the card readers? These are things one needs to take into account when attacking blackjack, even in the real world!

    What site are you currently betting at?
    Hey! Sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning. Yes I understand you're just trying to help and perhaps I'm just experiencing variance in my favor. The other site with 75~80% pen are 8decks nDAS S17 no surrender BJ pays 3/2 insurance pays 2/1. Min bet is 5 and 10 depends on tables and max bet is at least 1~2K. Usually 4~5players at the table on average (7 is max). Speed of the game is not as fast compare to real live BJ obviously. If I play 1 box I would say around 40~50 hph with 4~5 other players at the table but I can play up to 3 boxes at a time with different bet sizing in each box. I play in European sites and they only accept Europeans apparently....
    Last edited by BJ_Counter; 05-05-2017 at 09:42 PM.

  6. #6


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    Have you successfully cashed out any winnings? Live online blackjack that allows wonging in and out just seems a bit bizarre to me. I'd be wary of this website failing to pay out. But fwiw, making 13k in 110 hours, spreading 10-50 in a 50% pen 8 decker seems pretty legendary.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJ_Counter View Post
    Hey! Sorry if I misinterpreted your meaning. Yes I understand you're just trying to help and perhaps I'm just experiencing variance in my favor. The other site with 75~80% pen are 8decks nDAS no surrender BJ pays 3/2 insurance pays 2/1. Min bet is 5 and 10 depends on tables and max bet is at least 1~2K. Usually 4~5players at the table on average (7 is max). Speed of the game is not as fast compare to real live BJ obviously. If I play 1 box I would say around 40~50 hph with 4~5 other players at the table but I can play up to 3 boxes at a time with different bet sizing in each box. I play in European sites and they only accept Europeans apparently....
    Still don't like how an 8D game offers nDAS nor even surrender.

    In order to find out what the acceptable spread should be (assuming one is crazy enough to even attempt Ap'ing online blackjack,) would require a simulation.
    I am not in the European market, but what does the brick and mortar market look like for 21?

    Depending on rules, your bankroll, and your current living conditions, one can't really give you any exact action or recommendation.

    What does your bankroll look like? What live 21 games are offered where you live? Do you live near a casino or a gambling destination? I feel you will have better luck in a real casino than online, but that is just me. Oh, and what are the rules for 21 in the real casinos?

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevie Wonder View Post
    Have you successfully cashed out any winnings? Live online blackjack that allows wonging in and out just seems a bit bizarre to me. I'd be wary of this website failing to pay out. But fwiw, making 13k in 110 hours, spreading 10-50 in a 50% pen 8 decker seems pretty legendary.
    Hi Stevie and thx! I guess I was just running hot as dogman said... and yes I've successfully cashed out 10K+ of my profit before already.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by dogman_1234 View Post
    Still don't like how an 8D game offers nDAS nor even surrender.

    In order to find out what the acceptable spread should be (assuming one is crazy enough to even attempt Ap'ing online blackjack,) would require a simulation.
    I am not in the European market, but what does the brick and mortar market look like for 21?

    Depending on rules, your bankroll, and your current living conditions, one can't really give you any exact action or recommendation.

    What does your bankroll look like? What live 21 games are offered where you live? Do you live near a casino or a gambling destination? I feel you will have better luck in a real casino than online, but that is just me. Oh, and what are the rules for 21 in the real casinos?
    The site I'm currently playing is one of the biggest gaming platform in Europe (I don't want to mention any names). I'm a poker player myself for many year now. I don't want to disclose my currently location but there are casinos nearby within 45mins~1hour travel. But I would rather not to go AP in those casinos as I don't want to get banned from entering otherwise I wouldn't be able to play poker there anymore lol. I can spare 10K bankroll on BJ no problem but I would rather not go higher than that just yet as I still have a lot to learn so I don't mind doing it as part time at the moment. Oh and the rules for the live casinos I could go to are 8D (I think there are 6D as well) but all of them have no surrender but allow DAS and can split more than once and dealer stand on S17 with 75~80% pen.

  10. #10


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    is the site you are playing ENHC or OBO? this is an important question with strategic considerations. i am in the midst of a session of online plo right now myself so i will address your questions more fully once i am done, but you need double the bankroll for 3 spots, so 10k. for 3 x 50.

  11. #11


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    so step #1 is making sure you have perfected basic strategy for your rule set. probably you haven't even gotten this far. step #2 is master the basics of card counting BEFORE you put your money at risk. So this takes about 50-100 hours of practice. What you should be doing right now is purchasing 8 decks, a discard tray and a shoe and playing at home until you can play through two consecutive shoes with no betting or playing mistakes.

    For a complete list of index plays you should purchase 'professional blackjack' or the CVCX software from qfit. You would split TT v 5 and 6 at +7 true count. You obtain the true count by dividing the running count by the number of decks remaining. With 50% penetration you aren't going to be making this play a lot anyway.

    Anyway, the game you are playing is beatable but it is a very marginal game because of the slow game speed and poor penetration and bad rules. Basically conditions are all suboptimal. I know of a live dealer game that has the same penetration and much superior rules. Better rules make a significant difference because it means your advantage gets much bigger earlier. So at TC + 1 the game I am thinking of, with a liberal rule set, has an advantage probably of around +.6% whereas your game would be break even at the same point. Especially because penetration is so bad having an advantage at TC +1 is a pretty big deal because TC+1 and +2 are all you are going to see for the most part.

    Eventually you could get backed off but it is kind of tough for them to catch on, because the games are actually outsourced to third parties mostly and also there is just so much whale action that you are just a drop in the bucket.

    Soft eighteen you just hit vs 9 and T (always) and stay vs A at +1 true count. Vs small cards you will usually double.

    You take insurance at +3 true count.

    For the most part you just split eights. At very high counts you can stay this hand vs ten, but again with shitty penetration like you are playing that is never going to happen.

    Yes you can double with 8 vs 5 or 6 at a modest true count.




    and the 70-80% pen site is much much better. should definitely play that game.

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    is the site you are playing ENHC or OBO? this is an important question with strategic considerations. i am in the midst of a session of online plo right now myself so i will address your questions more fully once i am done, but you need double the bankroll for 3 spots, so 10k. for 3 x 50.
    Hi Meistro, yeah it's ENHC. Oh and thx for the tips about the BR thing!

  13. #13


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    okay, well make sure you are using the right strategy changes for ENHC. Which means you never double or split against ace or ten, except AA v T.

    I know of an online game that is OBO, ES10, S17, DAS, DA2. The only unfavourable rule is no re-split. So the house edge is only -.24% vs probably -.7% which you are playing. It is a significant difference. So you might want to switch your play to this one.

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