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Thread: Trying to make sense of the strategy tables for Surrender (Late Surrender)

  1. #1


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    Trying to make sense of the strategy tables for Surrender (Late Surrender)

    This post is about "Surrender". I have never before used "Surrender" for several reasons and I'd like to ask for some help in understanding.

    This post is about "Late Surrender". My reading suggests that "Early Surrender" is only available in a very tiny number of casinos in North America.

    I've been reading two books that explain Surrender. They are:
    1) "The World's Biggest BJ Book" by Lance Humble and Carl Cooper
    2) "BJ a Professional Reference" by Michael Dalton.

    The WGBJB describes Surrender as follows: (pg 35 and 400-404)
    1) Surrender enables you to stop play on any hand where DLR doesn't show A and get back half your bet.
    2) Most casinos only allow SUR on first two cards.
    3) It's not worth learning complex rules for 3-card Surrender.

    The main problem I'm having is that the charts provided for Surrender are very different for both these books. I'd very much like to ask if one of these book is generally regarded as closer to the reality and if so which one is it?

    Some of the main differences are:

    Although TWGBJB implies you can only surrender if the Dlr is not showing an Ace, both books provide many examples of when you should surrender when the Dlr is showing an Ace.
    For example TWGBJB states you should Surrender when holding T,6 vs Dlr's A. But the Pro Ref book gives six examples of when you should surrender when Dlr is showing an Ace. They are:
    T,5 T,6 T,7 9,6 9,7 7,7 v A
    On page 192, the Pro Ref book says you should only surrender when Dlr shows an Ace if the Dlr always hits a Soft 17. TWGBJB never says anything about the Dlr always hitting a Soft 17.
    Also, the Pro Ref book states you should not surrender 8,8 v A in a 2 deck shoe.

    These are just a few examples of the differences between these two books. But, there are a great many differences between the strategy tables regarding Surrender for these two books.

    Can anyone please help me makes sense of this? I must not be understanding something here. Or is one of these books just wrong? Or maybe both of them?

  2. #2


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    I think Lance and Humble are more widely read BJ authors, but outdated. I haven't read Dalton's book. I would't pay any attention to specific hand compositions, unless you have a single deck. Whatever system you are using, just use the index numbers. Surrender is the correct play when your first 2 cards have less than 25% EV vs dealer up card. 16 v 9, T, A and 15 v 10 are basicstrategy for S17. For H17, add 15 v A, 88 v A. But mainly use the index for your system.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #3


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    There are many different types of surrender. The most common is late surrender, where you can surrender after the dealer has checked for blackjack and you can surrender against any card. Then there is early surrender, which is more common these days as ES10, where you surrender before the dealer checks for blackjack but cannot surrender against ace. The H17 rule also impacts your basic strategy surrender decisions. In a S17 late surrender game you would surrender according to basic strategy :

    16 v T, 9, A
    15 v T

    but in a H17 LS game you surrender

    16 v T, 9, A
    17 v A
    15 v T, A
    8,8 v A


    For ES10 you surrender
    16 v 9
    14, 15, 16 v 10
    88 v T
    77 v T


    And then there are surrender index plays. So going back to H17 late surrender, and using the hi lo count (which if you are asking elementary questions like this you should be using)

    you would also late surrender 14 v T at +3
    and 15 v 9 at +2
    and 16 v 8 at +4
    and 15 v T at +0 (this is more of a wouldn't surrender index)
    and reverse index stay don't surrender 17 v A at +1
    8,8 v T at + 1

    (IIRC it has been quite some time since I have played late surrender)


    There is also the less common LS10, which forbids surrendering against ace even with late surrender.
    Or another uncommon variation, no surrender on hands you insure.

    There is also full early surrender, which is nice. Here you surrender much more liberally, actually everything against ace except 8, 9, T, 11 and 2,2 (H17 you do surrender 2,2).


    Please review the appropriate basic strategy chart for your local rule set for information regarding appropriate basic strategy surrender decisions.
    Last edited by Meistro123; 03-30-2017 at 04:36 AM.

  4. #4


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    Ummm .... EV - Expected Value?

    I guess that I may be out of date as well. I've never heard of "index values". I'll try to search for that term and see what I can find.

    OK. I found an article that explains EV. I found it here:

    https://wizardofodds.com/games/black...ndix/9/1ds17r4

    You have to memorize all those values? Seems almost impossible.

    There are 575 combinations for each of the following categories. That is almost 6,000 numbers that need to be memorized? Surely that cannot be correct?




    OK. Index Numbers. I understand this under a different name. All the strategy tables I have used have a number so that you Stand if the TC is greater than or equal to that number and Hit if it is less than that number.
    That is what you mean by Index Numbers?

    I understand that concept but I don't understand what it has to do with Surrender.

    Is it no longer true that only Atlantic City casinos offer early surrender? If not can you tell me whether Early Surrender is an important part of a winning strategy?

    How about Late Surrender? How important is that I use that?

    Wow! This is getting really, really complicated. But I definitely want to know.


    Oh Wait! I just found one web site that gives rules for both Early and Late Surrender and makes it appear much simpler than any of my books. What do you think of this?

    https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/6/


    Would you use the charts on this page?

    One question about this web page. It gives rules for one, two, four, six and eight decks. But what about three, five or seven decks. Is it impossible to find a game with those odd number of decks in the shoe?
    Last edited by Skyler62; 03-30-2017 at 05:51 AM.

  5. #5


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    Meistro,

    May I ask why it has been a long time since you have played Late Surrender? Can you please tell me what you have been playing instead?

    Would it be a mistake for me to plan on playing Late Surrender if it is offered by a casino?

  6. #6


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    Quote Originally Posted by bejammin075 View Post
    Surrender is the correct play when your first 2 cards have less than 25% EV vs dealer up card.
    Careful! You surrender when the EV is less than or equal to 50% which is equivalent to a 25% or less chance of winning the hand.

  7. #7


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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyler62 View Post
    May I ask why it has been a long time since you have played Late Surrender?
    Probably because it's not offered in many regions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyler62 View Post
    Would it be a mistake for me to plan on playing Late Surrender if it is offered by a casino?
    No. Surrender is an advantageous rule for the player and especially so for card counters.

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyler62 View Post
    https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/6/


    Would you use the charts on this page?
    The Wizard of Odds is an extremely reliable source of information. See also https://www.blackjackinfo.com/blackj...rategy-engine/ where you can get the correct strategy for most common rule sets, including for surrender. You don't have to memorize them all - just the ones that you will actually play. If you run across a new game somewhere, you can access the site from your phone before you play and brush up. I recommend doing so outside the casino or in the bathroom.

  9. #9


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    May I ask why it has been a long time since you have played Late Surrender? Can you please tell me what you have been playing instead?
    No surrender, ES and ES10 games. I haven't played late surrender games because the places I played didn't offer them, for the most part.
    You have to memorize all those values?
    No you do not have to memorize EV charts.

    That is what you mean by Index Numbers?
    Yes.
    Is it no longer true that only Atlantic City casinos offer early surrender?
    Yes. To my knowledge full early surrender is only offered in South America, although I am not widely traveled so you may find it elsewhere.
    If not can you tell me whether Early Surrender is an important part of a winning strategy?
    Early surrender is a favourable rule but you can still win without it. Rules are not really part of a winning strategy, they are simply conditions to which you must adapt.
    How about Late Surrender? How important is that I use that?
    If it is available you use it. Surrender in any form is very beneficial to a card counter because it is a higher ev play with lower variance.
    One question about this web page. It gives rules for one, two, four, six and eight decks. But what about three, five or seven decks.
    Odd number deck games are extremely rare, I wouldn't worry about it. Anyway you can use the same indexes for all multideck games.

  10. #10


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    Thank you Meistro and Gronborg,

    Very helpful. Much appreciated.

  11. #11


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    Just learn the proper strategy for whichever game you expect to be playing. You don't need to learn single deck S17 surrenders if you only play 6D H17 games. Once you learn them, it doesn't hurt to learn a few extras in other types of games, as well as basic strategy for them (essentially, just need to learn the differences, since most plays are the same)....that way if you find yourself on a different game (ie: S17 instead of H17 6-decker), then you know the difference in basic strategy and surrenders [as well as some indices]. Of course, if you never plan on playing a different game, then you don't need to learn the others and they won't help you. IE: You play every once in a while and don't play BJ professionally and play multiple games and play in different venues frequently.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

  12. #12


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    I've been examining this web page and found something odd.

    https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/6

    If you look at the entry for Late Surrender - Single Deck - where Plr holds 16 and Dlr shows an Ace. The chart has a Y under "A (S17)" and another Y under "A (H17)"
    Am I reading this correctly? That seems to mean that if you hold 16 and the Dlr shows an Ace, you should surrender if the Dlr hits S17 and also if the Dlr does not hit S17. Isn't that logically bizarre?
    Doesn't that mean that you should Surrender when Dlr shows an Ace regardless of the casino option about Dealer Hitting Soft 17?
    Maybe I'm not understanding this chart. But it sure does look kind of wacky to me. Why not just say plr should surrender if Dlr shows an Ace? Why bring the "Dlr Hits Soft 17" option into it?
    Seems very peculiar to me.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyler62 View Post
    I've been examining this web page and found something odd.

    https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/6

    If you look at the entry for Late Surrender - Single Deck - where Plr holds 16 and Dlr shows an Ace. The chart has a Y under "A (S17)" and another Y under "A (H17)"
    Am I reading this correctly? That seems to mean that if you hold 16 and the Dlr shows an Ace, you should surrender if the Dlr hits S17 and also if the Dlr does not hit S17. Isn't that logically bizarre?
    Doesn't that mean that you should Surrender when Dlr shows an Ace regardless of the casino option about Dealer Hitting Soft 17?
    Maybe I'm not understanding this chart. But it sure does look kind of wacky to me. Why not just say plr should surrender if Dlr shows an Ace? Why bring the "Dlr Hits Soft 17" option into it?
    Seems very peculiar to me.
    You're looking at the first chart, yes?

    Just look at the chart, and you'll notice WHY there is an H17 and S17 option. You do NOT surrender 15 vs A in S17, but you do in H17. Likewise for 17. It just happens to be the same (yes surrender) for both H17 and S17 if you have a 16 vs A.
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

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