DD card cutting technique..

[Freightman]

Thanks Freighter. I can see where that could be important in a DD game.

But I was wondering more about the term. For instance, you start out playing 1 at $25. Now 2 hands at $100 each. Is that considered as 1 to 4? Or 1 to 8? From the pit or eits perspective.

The pit or EITS will equate 25 to 2x100 as 1-8. Depending on factors, I would equate that as 1-6.

[DSchles]

"How do you come up with 1 to 6?"

If you were betting just one hand all the time, the equivalent risk of ruin for 2 x $100 is 1 x $137. So that's actually 1 to 5.5. The pit, on the other hand, simply sees that your top bet of $200 is eight times your min. bet of $25.

Don

[Freightman]

Freighter. I always align myself to the pit. But I'm curious. How do you come up with 1to6?

The number would actually change round by round.

Playing heads up and positive deck and the fact you switch between 1 and 2 hands. Keep in mind this comment is based on regular betting patterns VS your way of doing things - I would need to know more about your scheme etc etc.

Consider the cumulative higher dollar value wagered to the cut card, for a single hand, multiplied by the number of hands remaining to be played versus the covariance reduced wager per hand when going to 2, multiplied by number of reduced rounds remaining, the sum of both scenarios now being compared - the dollar differential if both scenarios compared as a proportion to your perceived spread, is now your reduced spread.

Damn it, starting to sound like 3. In any event. You now have new things to think about. First (tough for you), simply up your single hand bets until butting up to table max. Second, if ruin or variance is not a factor, then screw covariance and simply duplicate your single hand ramp to both squares.

[DSchles]

So in forum terms. We say 1to8. Are we referring to the pits view or the formula you described above?

I'd leave it to each individual to say what he means, but, most of the time, when someone says he spreads 1 to 8, he means that the total money he bets at the top (even if spread over two hands) is eight times what he bets at the bottom.

Don

[Freightman]

So in forum terms. We say 1to8. Are we referring to the pits view or the formula you described above?

Since most players don't understand the issue, the path of least resistance, and easiest to understand is 1x25 to 2x100 is 1-8. As a player becomes more aware, they understand there is more to the issue and will eventually gets to the real nuts and bolts. Regardless, there is always a difference between the theoretical vs the Practical.

[Freightman]

I'd leave it to each individual to say what he means, but, most of the time, when someone says he spreads 1 to 8, he means that the total money he bets at the top (even if spread over two hands) is eight times what he bets at the bottom.

Don

I think Don's explanation is really more simple than mine, accurate, and therefore easier to understand.

[Freightman]

Wow. Do you actually think this way while playing? I've been toying with the idea of DD in LV.

You'd be amazed at what goes through my head when I'm playing, and at the speed to which it occurs. All the while, talking to the dealer, fooling around with the pit, and of course, admiring the ganzagas on the waitress.

Essentially, split your brain in 2, play cards with half, and ogle the waitress with the other half.

As far as you playing dd in LV, think you would have some fun and make some money.

[Three]

I'm trying to get a handle on what you view as fooling the pit.

I really don't think you ever fool the pit. All you can do is make them comfortable letting an AP play. To do this you use a system strong enough to make good money with a spread they are comfortable with. Your top bet is something they are comfortable with. Your bets and plays are not correlated because you have a count that has a top PE augmented by a count that allows combining the info to have top betting accuracy. Your counts will allow you to flag situations where you can make optimal bet moves or plays that look stupid or make stupid bets or plays that look really stupid and costly but the info you gather and the way you use it tells you the cost is almost nothing. Never win too much unless it is all in one shoe. All this combined allows the pit to feel totally comfortable letting you play. They know they won't get in trouble for not acting because you don't seem to be a threat. Reading the pit to know when they would like you to leave is a big plus. Even with all that you can still overstay your welcome.

I just worry about the really dumb suit. He wouldn't realize I am not a threat. He is running around backing off ploppies. Of course in any decent place that will get his ass fired quick but in some casinos there is not a smart suit in the entire lot to know he is being stupid. If your casino doesn't tolerate it when anyone wins they won't have many customers left. If the games are so bad nobody ever wins eventually they won't come back. The casino staff can think whatever they want but the patrons should always feel that the staff is rooting for them to win. Nobody wants to go to a casino or deal with casino employees that openly want you to be destroyed. You are volunteering to play where the house has a huge edge. The house will win in the long run. That means they shouldn't sweat the short run and should at least look like they are rooting for the patrons to defy the odds that everyone knows is a fact of life and win. It is just smart business regardless of how they may feel. People are looking for an entertaining diversion not being harassed or treated poorly.

[Freightman]

Sooo. If I could keep a 4 column with one half and a percentage conventional count with the other half I could...naw, forget it. There is nothing left to admire ganzagas and ogle the waitress with. Damn just when I need another head.

Check below the belt. Might be a spare.

[Frank Galvin]

Sooo. If I could keep a 4 column with one half and a percentage conventional count with the other half I could...naw, forget it. There is nothing left to admire ganzagas and ogle the waitress with. Damn just when I need another head.

I thought that one was for admiring the cocktails! You need a 3rd one for the % conventional linear count.

[Frank Galvin]

I really don't think you ever fool the pit. All you can do is make them comfortable letting an AP play. To do this you use a system strong enough to make good money with a spread they are comfortable with. Your top bet is something they are comfortable with. Your bets and plays are not correlated because you have a count that has a top PE augmented by a count that allows combining the info to have top betting accuracy. Your counts will allow you to flag situations where you can make optimal bet moves or plays that look stupid or make stupid bets or plays that look really stupid and costly but the info you gather and the way you use it tells you the cost is almost nothing. Never win too much unless it is all in one shoe. All this combined allows the pit to feel totally comfortable letting you play. They know they won't get in trouble for not acting because you don't seem to be a threat. Reading the pit to know when they would like you to leave is a big plus. Even with all that you can still overstay your welcome.

I just worry about the really dumb suit. He wouldn't realize I am not a threat. He is running around backing off ploppies. Of course in any decent place that will get his ass fired quick but in some casinos there is not a smart suit in the entire lot to know he is being stupid. If your casino doesn't tolerate it when anyone wins they won't have many customers left. If the games are so bad nobody ever wins eventually they won't come back. The casino staff can think whatever they want but the patrons should always feel that the staff is rooting for them to win. Nobody wants to go to a casino or deal with casino employees that openly want you to be destroyed. You are volunteering to play where the house has a huge edge. The house will win in the long run. That means they shouldn't sweat the short run and should at least look like they are rooting for the patrons to defy the odds that everyone knows is a fact of life and win. It is just smart business regardless of how they may feel. People are looking for an entertaining diversion not being harassed or treated poorly.

I believe that T3 is 100% correct. I do not believe that you can ever fool a floor person with a 1/2 brain, if all you are doing to beat the game of blackjack, is card counting. The correlation between your raising your bets when the decks are laden with more 10s (and likely Aces), and flat-betting (near) minimum or lowering your bets when there is a deficit of high cards, is obvious. You may fluctuate your betting (thanks Dr. Reid, may he RIP), but by and large, you bet to your advantage, not for your disadvantage.

Recently, I went to my local tribal ATM, I tried to play like a ploppy as I hadn't been there for awhile, and most definitely, not recently at that time of morning. It actually was fairly quiet, with 1-2 ploppies on each open table. When I sat down, I noticed a floor person that I had not seen nor met before. He was an english bloke. Presumably, not having too much to do at that point in his shift, he walked over to this table in his pit, and engaged me in conversation, eventually broaching upon local and foreign politic issues (Trump and Obama Wiretap Tweet, UK/IRA history, etc.). We spoke for the remainder of that shoe, all the time I knew that he was evaluating my skill level, but I really did not want to walk away from the shoe, as it was just me, a ploppy and the dealer, and the TC was near +7, half way through the 6 deck shoe. So, I kept our witty colloquy flowing, while keeping track of the cards and their impact on the RC & TC, and my decisions whether to deviate from BS. I was proud of the ability I have gained to multitask at that level, but contemporaneously was conscious that my goose could be cooked at this local joint. So, I played close to BS, and kept my spread moderate (only going from 1-8 on this 6D game).

Needless to say, he walked away when the shoe ended, letting me play on. After the dealer and I finished the cut card dance, the dealer began dealing, and over the course of the first 5 hands, received 7 Aces, and I only received 1. He had 4 blackjacks, the first 3 hands consecutively, and of course my only Ace appeared as a draw on a double of a hard 11. Well, my newest best "bud" strolled over, and the dealer had to exclaim that this shoe was horrible, and suggested that perhaps I might want him to ask the floor for a new shoe.

As I was sitting there in an out of body experience, the floor "innocently" asked the dealer why, I can clearly hear the dealer (verbatim) exclaim, "I've only dealt 5 hands so far, and already 7 or 8 Aces are gone." The floor, then standing immediately to my left (I was in seat 6 of 7, heads up) tilted his head toward me, looked down and said, "I guess you won't be counting this shoe."

Long and (more long than) short of it, you really can't fool a semi-competent floor person.

P.S. - Sorry Don, but I decided not to spell out each instance of a numeral.

[Freightman]

Great story Frank. So did they change the shoe? The ploppy could have been counting too and just threw you under the bus.

I remember the time I was heads up, 4 suits came into the pit, 2 outside, and 1 of them holding my rating card. I wondered if the noticed anything peculiar about my play? They did seem a bit excited.

[Frank Galvin]

1. There are other players at the tables?

2. Ploppies read (ZBB?)? Every self-respecting counter already owns at least 1 copy of Don's book!