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Thread: Professional advice on DD bet spread..

  1. #14


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Maestro, this is good learning for me. Now, my thought was that even in heads up play, by playing 2 hands in positive decks, I was getting more of the big cards than the dealer because I was receiving two hands to his one. Another thought was that if the cut card in a DD game was going to come out and it's a positive deck, why not go deeper into the deck by having two hands playing?

    I wonder if Norm, Don or others would also comment on this.
    The general idea of 2 hands is that by covariance, you reduce your per hand bet by a factor. EV essentially remains the same with reduced variance. So, with 2 hands in high counts, provided your bankroll can handle it, why not play your single hand max on both hands. Variance goes up, but so does EV.

    Also, your thought of jumping to 2 hands right before the cut card in high counts is a good one (heart notwithstanding) know where you are, and where the cut card is, and you're in business. I do it frequently. The more hands played at high counts, the better off you will be, and this is one strategy of achieving that goal.[/QUOTE]

    Zee
    Another point. I'm toast in my locale, however, there's a store about an hour away that I can still play, with heavy heat, scrutiny and countermeasures once I'm noticed. Your heads up in a high count, playing your lower stakes min game with Big Bertha (her boyfriend dreads Thursday nights) whispering to the dealer to slow down, the head honcho hawking me alone. I go there maybe 2 or 3 times a year. They've bounced everyone of consequence that played there, but I keep my max down, they are looking for an excuse to bounce me, which they will eventually get.

    I have to play the 5-200 game using min of 10 dropping g to 5 in extreme negatives. I went there last week receiving my typical win (there are pluses to this game that make it worthwhile)

    I'm playing 1 hand and the The count is good and A good looking ploppy girl sits down, and I can't even ask her to hold off because if my buddy hawking me. In that case, move to 2. Tough to countermeasure that move. Bet is only 70-80 bucks. They won't tolerate more from me. My spread is diwn, but technical play is perfect.

    Anyways just to finish the story, leave after an hour or hour and a half cashing out 1100 on 200 buy in, cash cage supervisor grumbling about my nice day at the office. That was last week - next trip maybe August or September.

    Two points for you Zee. Know when to spread to 2 hands - don't make any if the excuses if not doubling A7 v6 etc etc, cause you'll annoy the other ploppies. You typically play shitty rules and spread. Don't give up more by making shitty plays.

  2. #15


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    I just ran sim for playing the same DD game. Playing one hand gives a SCORE of 43.6, 2 hands gets a SCORE of 62.89.

    With optimal betting, in one hand play, your bet is $50 at TC +1, $100 at TC+2, $150 at TC+3 and max bet of $175 for all higher TC's.

    With optimal betting at 2 hands, Lu are betting 2x$50 at TC+1, 2x$100 t TC+2, 2x$150 at TC+3 and max bet of 2x$175 for all higher TC's.

    Given those ramps, playing 2 hands is significantly better. Heat increases if playing one hand and spreading over $300.

  3. #16


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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeBabar View Post
    I just ran sim for playing the same DD game. Playing one hand gives a SCORE of 43.6, 2 hands gets a SCORE of 62.89.

    With optimal betting, in one hand play, your bet is $50 at TC +1, $100 at TC+2, $150 at TC+3 and max bet of $175 for all higher TC's.

    With optimal betting at 2 hands, Lu are betting 2x$50 at TC+1, 2x$100 t TC+2, 2x$150 at TC+3 and max bet of 2x$175 for all higher TC's.

    Given those ramps, playing 2 hands is significantly better. Heat increases if playing one hand and spreading over $300.

    Zee
    I'm impressed. You've clearly put in your max of 175, and determined deck pen and come out with optimal ramps. Boy, software is nice. Now, if you really want to super impress the shit out of me, determine the reasoning behind that ramp.

    This is more of a manual excercise. The purpose behind it is not homework as such - the purpose is to help you do off the cuff sims in your head, at the table, to change your attack, mid stroke, with various changes in deck pen and rule changes.

    Pen and paper work well with this excercise, as it will force you to the proper reasoning. Some hints. Use house edge to determine break even. Your first ramp us plus 1, probably break even. Your plus 2 bet is a proportion of house 1-how dies that coincide with percentage increase in edge. Follow the same reasoning between plus 2 and plus 3, and do forth.

    One more important hint. You have probably optioned flooring in CVCX. That means that true 1 incorporates all true counts between 1.00 and 1.99, true 2 incorporates 2.09 to 2.99 etc etc.

  4. #17


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    Given those ramps, playing 2 hands is significantly better.
    The 2x ramp is better from the perspective of hourly rate, but worse from the perspective of ROR. Your problem is you are comparing apples and oranges. It would make more sense to compare 1 x 100 and 2 x 75 because this keeps ROR constant. I mean, yes, by betting more money you can generate a higher EV. You can generate even more EV by betting 1/6th your bankroll every hand but it is not a great course of action.

  5. #18


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    Quote Originally Posted by Meistro123 View Post
    The 2x ramp is better from the perspective of hourly rate, but worse from the perspective of ROR. Your problem is you are comparing apples and oranges. It would make more sense to compare 1 x 100 and 2 x 75 because this keeps ROR constant. I mean, yes, by betting more money you can generate a higher EV. You can generate even more EV by betting 1/6th your bankroll every hand but it is not a great course of action.

    Zee
    Meistro addressed a point which I didn't. You clearly ran 2 different sims with no regard for covariance. No issues if ror us not a factor. But, you are risk averse and I don't think you will follow through on your sims.

    Try this. There's a button that says 1 hand or 2. Play with that. It gives you the option to spread to 2 hands at the true count you designate. What you will find that your win rate goes up, as does variance the lower the positive true count that you select. The higher the TC, the lower the variance with an effect on win rate. It's not a bad thing. However, by playing with the button, and ramping, you should find a 1-2 hand spread that fits your personality.

  6. #19
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    Rather than just answer this question I am presenting a caveat. A warning.

    For newbies, if you care about being 86'd and you should, moving
    between one and two hands always draws heat, and the temperature
    can be very high, especially in double deck and single deck games.

    A word to the wise is sufficient. Forewarned is forearmed.

  7. #20


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    Not true for single deck in Reno. DD in LV? From what I've read on the forum, it doesn't sound like a problem for Freighter.
    Double deck spreading to 2 hands is something I've only only a very few times in Vegas, and I've kept the spread low.
    Elsewhere, mind you, I did manage a paltry 25 to 2x500. I really considered a Bear approach of 2x1000, but thought that might be viewed as a bit garish. I guess I need to get over modesty issues.

  8. #21


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    Quote Originally Posted by moses View Post
    So let me get this straight Freighter. I'm going to double my workload, fly to Vegas, and sleep in a strange bed, and they are going to get all butt hurt if I spread one to two hands? How is that possibly worthwhile?
    1. You pLay only the quality dd games at low spread - I'll send you to a couple.
    2. You spread a modest 1-12 or 15 on some if the lesser quality games I will send you to.
    3. You play 8 deck 6:5 with shitty cut at the GN swimming pool. Flat bet minimum. Eye candy is phenomenal - consider as cheap entertainment.

  9. #22


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    1. You pLay only the quality dd games at low spread - I'll send you to a couple.
    2. You spread a modest 1-12 or 15 on some if the lesser quality games I will send you to.
    3. You play 8 deck 6:5 with shitty cut at the GN swimming pool. Flat bet minimum. Eye candy is phenomenal - consider as cheap entertainment.
    Actually, I need to revise 1. If you're not a conceited pompous ass, also have a good act, I know a couple spots where there's good dd that you can spread on.

    Note, the games I'm referring to are a combination of 10 & 25 mins.

  10. #23


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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    3. You play 8 deck 6:5 with shitty cut at the GN swimming pool. Flat bet minimum. Eye candy is phenomenal - consider as cheap entertainment.
    There used to be a low class joint in Fremont Street called Las Vegas Club (not sure what they are doing with that space)
    They had a 5.00 game, relatively decent with really skimpy dressed dealers. The pit as set up in such a way that you had direct line eyesight access to the tushes across the pit. Part of the charm was every few minutes the girs would gyrate their tushes. Great entertainment (never lost there either) they also had a runway in the middle of the pit where the dealers took turns strutting their stuff.

    There were also the geriatric ladies playing, and they of course, received no real benefit from the gyrating ladies. I suggested to the female critter, that I should go up on the runway, and show those girls how it was done. She dared me. I chickened out, but I'm sure some if those old ladies would have stuck dollar bills into my belt, especially if I started to strip

  11. #24
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    I can't believe nobody said what I am going to say. I only skimmed a lot of the thread so maybe they did.

    In NMSE, if you start a shoe alone play one spot. If you start a shoe with others play 2 spots. Now you need to set a ramp for 2 spots. 2x$50 (double the table min of $25 as you said was required) to 2x$200 (2x50, 2x75, 2x150 and 2x200) EV about $135/100 rounds. Then you need an equivalent 1 spot ramp. Just take 2/3rds of the combined bet on both spots for a ramp of $65 to $275 (65, 90, 200 and 250), EV about $100/100 rounds. If you don't have the BR or the stones to play it develop what you don't have or play another game.
    Last edited by Three; 02-28-2017 at 03:00 PM.

  12. #25


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tthree View Post
    I can't believe nobody said what I am going to say. I only skimmed a lot of the thread so maybe they did.

    .
    Oh my G_d. Not sure I can take the revelations.

  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freightman View Post
    Oh my G_d. Not sure I can take the revelations.
    I am not sure how I am supposed to take that.

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