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Thread: Blackjack Newbee looking for guidance

  1. #1


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    Blackjack Newbee looking for guidance

    Hi everyone. I have been lurking this forum for about a month now and finally decided to register. Please be nice.

    More about me, I am what I can call a casual blackjack player for about 6 years now. We go to Vegas once a year, AC once or 2x a year or so, and the closest casino to us about 3x a year. Just recently we have been going to the closest one 2x a month. 6 decks, DAS, DA2, no surrender, split aces one card each, dealer hits soft 17. I know and follow BS by heart and have had my share of wins and losses. I'm interested in card counting (I know I have to start practicing - A LOT!), got some questions for you APs...

    1. As I have been reading in the forum, you get the TC by dividing RC by the number of decks left to deal. When you say number of decks left, does that include the cards behind the cut card or not?

    2. How long should I normally stay on the table? I buy in $200 on a $15 table and would spread from $15 to $75. If I'm up $200-$300, is that enough profit that I should leave or do I stay with the thinking that the table is hot? This always happen to me where I'm up $200 and not leave the table and end up losing my profit and my buy in.

    Just recently, I have a $50 bet up, got two 6s against a dealer showing 4. Split the 6s 4x, double on 2 of them putting my bet to $300 - dealer busts!! Yipee!! So I go cash out my profit though I have only been dealt 3 hands on that table. Should I have stayed or was I correct at leaving?


    3. I leave the table when someone enters and does not follow BS. Do all of you do this?

    4. We will be visiting Biloxi and AC in the next couple of months, do you have any recommendations on which casinos to play at with better player advantage?

    Any other tips? I appreciate any feedback, and thanks in advance.

  2. #2
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    #1 I use an unbalanced count so I don't don't bother, but yes count all the cards not yet played.
    #2 BJ is a game of streaks. I prefer to leave on a high note, but in the end it doesn't matter.
    #3 - absolutely not. Why would I? His play has zero effect on you, except it slows the game down a bit. You need to understand that the play of others has zero net effect in the long run and that you are playing for the long run.
    Let me die in my sleep like my Grandfather.
    Not screaming in agony like his passengers.

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    Your post indicates some reliance on superstition. Such things as leaving when winning/losing; hot/cold tables; leaving because of the play of other people. These are all superstitons. This is a game of mathematical probabilities, and that is ALL that it is. You must think logically and remove all the nonsense from your head to have any chance at success at this game.

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    Welcome to Advantage Play, BJnb. Prepare yourself, because there’s a lot tolearn and lot’s of mileage to cover. Myrecommendation would be to pick up some good books, and then study, practice,study, practice…. I would recommend starting with Professional Blackjack byStanford Wong, and Black Belt in Blackjack by Arnold Snyder. After you get yourfoundations established I’d recommend diving into Blackjack Attack by DonSchlessinger, and Modern Blackjack by Norm Wattenberger. To respond to yourquestions:

    1. As Shadroch responded, derive the TC by dividingthe RC by the number of unseen decks, which includes the cards behind the cutcard. Estimate the number of unseen decks down to the quarter deck, e.g. 4.25decks, 2.75 decks. Personally, I find it easier to do the TC conversion bymultiplying by the inverse, rather than doing mental division, but whateverworks for you is fine.

    2. You should stay at a table as long as you can solong as the conditions remain favorable. I know, that sounds mysterious, but there are many factors to considere.g., heat, penetration, game speed, positive/negative count, fatigue, etc. Solong as conditions don’t deteriorate, e.g., dealer starts cutting off morecards, more players join reducing your hands/hour, pit starts watching you, you start making counting, playing and bettingerrors, the count goes way negative, youmight as well play. Those are the "whys" to leave. FYI - a spread of 15-75 at 6D won't send up Red Flags, but it won't make you much money either. (Not sure how you got to two hands of $1000 if your normal spread is $15-$200. Sounds like you might be overbetting for a typical RoR). For sure, there’s no sense in having a “Stop Win”threshold. BJ is one long session, and you have to think in terms of quality hoursplayed, rather than sessions won/lost, and let the wins/losses total up. You might need to leave after a sizable winjust because it crosses a casino’s threshold for a barring, but having asizable win in itself is not a reason to leave. Pick up some goodsoftware, like CVBJ/CVCX or BJRM, so you can see how changing/varying conditionseffect your Expected Value and Risk of Ruin.

    3. Other players’ play has no bearing on yourExpected Value over the long term. Youdon’t want to give up a quality game just because someone made a ploppy play.However, if you’re about to leave, citing ploppy play is a good act toadvertise why you are leaving.

    4. I’ve got no experience with Biloxi. AC has toughconditions for a Newbie. You should consider going to LV where you can findgood game conditions at the Red Chip level. Tunica has lower minimums, and penetrationis mediocre to bad, but the casinos are close together, so it might be worth ashot to get in some AP experience and mileage.
    Sorry for the long winded response. I remember when I started, and after many miles, I treasure the wisdom and experience that I've absorbed through these frums. Best of Luck!

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    My apoplogies for the formatting of my reply. Under certain conditions, things get overlooked ;-)

  7. #7
    Senior Member Frostbyte's Avatar
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    To answer your questions:

    1. Yes, include the decks behind the cut card. For all you know, the high cards that would bring the count back to zero could be in there, so they have to be included. (Incidentally, this is why extra penetration is a good thing; the less is cut off, the fewer good cards can be locked up in the cutoffs.)

    2. Play positive counts. Don't play negative counts. Get desensitized to the fear of losing a big bet, and to the emotional flux you will experience when whatever possible outcome happens to it. You were incorrect to leave if the count was still positive. Hot and cold tables do not exist in any meaningful sense; which dealer is sliding your cards across which table makes no difference to your EV. A table of punters might consider a table cold and leave when the dealer draws five six-card 21s in a row. A counter will know better, because if this has happened the count will be through the roof.

    3. Don't do this unless you have another reason to leave (like a significantly negative count). If you do leave, make clear your frustration with the punter's play.

    4. Online resources exist for finding this. Generally they are not posted on a forum accessible to lurkers who may or may not be casino employees. Atlantic City games are absolute, festering, stinking garbage (friend who lives in NYC went there and saw an eight-deck game with three cut off). The South in general has surprisingly good games off the top, but I have no experience from which to assess their AP value.

    Having said all that, read up more and practice until your eyes and hands bleed before you commit money to this.
    "Wait a minute. How do you beat someone to death with their own skull? That doesn't seem physically possible." "That's what Jimmy kept screaming: 'This doesn't seem physically possible!'"

  8. #8


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    Quote Originally Posted by shadroch View Post
    #1 I use an unbalanced count so I don't don't bother, but yes count all the cards not yet played.
    #2 BJ is a game of streaks. I prefer to leave on a high note, but in the end it doesn't matter.
    #3 - absolutely not. Why would I? His play has zero effect on you, except it slows the game down a bit. You need to understand that the play of others has zero net effect in the long run and that you are playing for the long run.
    Thank you for your response shadroch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoofly View Post
    Your post indicates some reliance on superstition. Such things as leaving when winning/losing; hot/cold tables; leaving because of the play of other people. These are all superstitons. This is a game of mathematical probabilities, and that is ALL that it is. You must think logically and remove all the nonsense from your head to have any chance at success at this game.
    I am slowly learning that here on the forum. Just need to remember them at all times.

    Quote Originally Posted by zengrifter View Post
    That would be nearly most all of the players, you never be at a table for more than a minute?
    You MUST tell us: why do you leave?
    Well... I only have a very low bankroll. $500-$1,000 per trip. If I'm already down $700 and on a table and did splits or double downs and some guy at the end hit on 12 vs a dealers 16 and ends up getting a face card which left the dealer with a 4 or 5, I truly truly hate it!! I know the solution is to sit at a higher minimum table but I just can't afford that now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Intermediate View Post
    Welcome to Advantage Play, BJnb. Prepare yourself, because there’s a lot tolearn and lot’s of mileage to cover. Myrecommendation would be to pick up some good books, and then study, practice,study, practice…. I would recommend starting with Professional Blackjack byStanford Wong, and Black Belt in Blackjack by Arnold Snyder. After you get yourfoundations established I’d recommend diving into Blackjack Attack by DonSchlessinger, and Modern Blackjack by Norm Wattenberger. To respond to your questions:

    1. As Shadroch responded, derive the TC by dividingthe RC by the number of unseen decks, which includes the cards behind the cutcard. Estimate the number of unseen decks down to the quarter deck, e.g. 4.25decks, 2.75 decks. Personally, I find it easier to do the TC conversion bymultiplying by the inverse, rather than doing mental division, but whateverworks for you is fine.

    2. You should stay at a table as long as you can solong as the conditions remain favorable. I know, that sounds mysterious, but there are many factors to considere.g., heat, penetration, game speed, positive/negative count, fatigue, etc. Solong as conditions don’t deteriorate, e.g., dealer starts cutting off morecards, more players join reducing your hands/hour, pit starts watching you, you start making counting, playing and bettingerrors, the count goes way negative, youmight as well play. Those are the "whys" to leave. FYI - a spread of 15-75 at 6D won't send up Red Flags, but it won't make you much money either. (Not sure how you got to two hands of $1000 if your normal spread is $15-$200. Sounds like you might be overbetting for a typical RoR). For sure, there’s no sense in having a “Stop Win”threshold. BJ is one long session, and you have to think in terms of quality hoursplayed, rather than sessions won/lost, and let the wins/losses total up. You might need to leave after a sizable winjust because it crosses a casino’s threshold for a barring, but having asizable win in itself is not a reason to leave. Pick up some goodsoftware, like CVBJ/CVCX or BJRM, so you can see how changing/varying conditionseffect your Expected Value and Risk of Ruin.

    3. Other players’ play has no bearing on yourExpected Value over the long term. Youdon’t want to give up a quality game just because someone made a ploppy play.However, if you’re about to leave, citing ploppy play is a good act toadvertise why you are leaving.

    4. I’ve got no experience with Biloxi. AC has toughconditions for a Newbie. You should consider going to LV where you can findgood game conditions at the Red Chip level. Tunica has lower minimums, and penetrationis mediocre to bad, but the casinos are close together, so it might be worth ashot to get in some AP experience and mileage.
    Sorry for the long winded response. I remember when I started, and after many miles, I treasure the wisdom and experience that I've absorbed through these frums. Best of Luck!
    Thanks Intermediate! I appreciate your response, explaining to me in detail. I am overwhelmed by all the books available, I'll start with the ones you recommended.

    I never got to two hand of $1000, that's too high of a bet for me now. :-)

    I'll be practicing and practicing and practicing. I'm starting to dream of cards in my sleep now.

  9. #9


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJNewbee View Post

    Well... I only have a very low bankroll. $500-$1,000 per trip. If I'm already down $700 and on a table and did splits or double downs and some guy at the end hit on 12 vs a dealers 16 and ends up getting a face card which left the dealer with a 4 or 5, I truly truly hate it!! I know the solution is to sit at a higher minimum table but I just can't afford that now.
    Statistically it is just as likely for the two cards you see as the deciding factor to come out the other way around. I'm sure it has happened to you this way as well. Basic strategy is not derived from after-the-fact results, but rather from probability theory. Sitting at a higher minimum table isn't going to win you any more or less money respective to your initial wager in these situations.

  10. #10


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    Yes, dreaming of cards in your sleep is normal....at least it was for me. During a one month period last year, I clocked around 40 hours of play, along with another 30-40 hours of practice. Seeing things like speed-limit signs, digital clocks, etc. I would automatically know what the "count" was for those numbers, along with what they totaled. LOL. My advice is to read as much as you can, practice practice practice, get books, software, practice, basically what everyone else said. Even though you're aiming for 100% accuracy, you also have to push yourself to count as fast as possible. Once you can consistently count a deck in X seconds with no errors, throw the cards down a little faster so you're a bit uncomfortable. Eventually, your accuracy and speed will be amazing (
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

  11. #11


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    Oh, and practice with multiple decks too, not just one! Once you're making no errors, remove a few cards from the deck and count through the deck. And/or start at a numbers that aren't 0 with the count (when practicing), so you're more familiar with being able to add/subtract higher numbers like +15 or -13 or whatever. With one deck, the highest or lowest you'll likely get to is around +/-12. But in real live play with 6 decks, you will eventually find yourself counting in the +20's or -20's. These are times when you especially don't want to lose the count! Good luck!
    "Everyone wants to be rich, but nobody wants to work for it." -Ryan Howard [The Office]

  12. #12


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    Quote Originally Posted by BJNewbee View Post
    Hi everyone. I have been lurking this forum for about a month now and finally decided to register. Please be nice.

    More about me, I am what I can call a casual blackjack player for about 6 years now. We go to Vegas once a year, AC once or 2x a year or so, and the closest casino to us about 3x a year. Just recently we have been going to the closest one 2x a month. 6 decks, DAS, DA2, no surrender, split aces one card each, dealer hits soft 17. I know and follow BS by heart and have had my share of wins and losses. I'm interested in card counting (I know I have to start practicing - A LOT!), got some questions for you APs...

    1. As I have been reading in the forum, you get the TC by dividing RC by the number of decks left to deal. When you say number of decks left, does that include the cards behind the cut card or not?

    2. How long should I normally stay on the table? I buy in $200 on a $15 table and would spread from $15 to $75. If I'm up $200-$300, is that enough profit that I should leave or do I stay with the thinking that the table is hot? This always happen to me where I'm up $200 and not leave the table and end up losing my profit and my buy in.

    Just recently, I have a $50 bet up, got two 6s against a dealer showing 4. Split the 6s 4x, double on 2 of them putting my bet to $300 - dealer busts!! Yipee!! So I go cash out my profit though I have only been dealt 3 hands on that table. Should I have stayed or was I correct at leaving?


    3. I leave the table when someone enters and does not follow BS. Do all of you do this?

    4. We will be visiting Biloxi and AC in the next couple of months, do you have any recommendations on which casinos to play at with better player advantage?

    Any other tips? I appreciate any feedback, and thanks in advance.
    I will answer all your questions in two ways. I am not doing this to get smart. One of the way is the questions you are asking don't matter to average gamblers. You can tell them whatever it won't make too much of a difference since they only go with hutches, beliefs and superstitions. Now that you know. Answer to your questions:

    1. Yes, TC = RC / # of decks remaining. It also depends on the systems that are using somethings. For some systems it is TC = RC / # of half decks remaining. For Unbalanced count converting to TC is different.

    2. There is no set rules on when to leave the table in terms of win or lose. I would leave the table when the counts goes really negative. I would stop my pay and re-examine my bankroll if I lose 20% of my bankroll.

    3. I don't leave the table when people don't play basic strategy. I let others play the way they choose since it don't have any effect on me whatsoever in the long run.

    4. AC is not a good place to play for Professional Blackjack Players! Biloxi is not bad but the game conditions are not great, too.

    I don't know you! So I don't know if you already mastered basic strategy or not. The most important thing for a newbie in blackjack is Basic Strategy. If you can get one thing out of this forum today is play prefect basic strategy. It is the foundation of winning in blackjack.
    Last edited by seriousplayer; 01-19-2013 at 11:36 PM.

  13. #13
    Senior Member dharmaprija's Avatar
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    I would never contradict RS or any other of our fantastic and reliable members but I would suggest NOT to be sitting/playing at a table that reaches a negative count of 2 or worse...especially not as far as -20!! I am sure he just made that reference for practice counting purposes ONLY. Since you have BS memorized completely I would suggest memorizing your Illustrious 18 and Fab 4 Indices as one of your next steps, these will increase your profit potential. Another big impact will be your ability to accurately estimate the remaining decks of cards. To do this I constantly carry 9 actual casino chips in my pocket, 9 chips is approximately identical to 2 decks of cards. I also have varying deck stacks positioned around my house, i glue them together with a glue stick at 1/2 deck incriments and i rotate their locale throughout my home occasionally. This tool lets you "eyeball" differing size decks of cards just by moving naturally thru the house day to day. Besides the books already mentioned to you i would recommend the free counting course at http://www.blackjackinfo.com/blackja...-lesson-03.php
    “The essence of independence has been to think and act according to standards from within, not without.”
    Aleister Crowley

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