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Thread: Advice Needed

  1. #1


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    Advice Needed

    I can't post in the card counting forum, so I thought I'd ask here. I used to count cards seriously, but do so only occasionally now. I don't want to memorize a ton of indices since I play so infrequently, so here's my situation: I play mostly 6 and 8 deck shoes. I want to use either REKO (no indices to memorize) or FELT with probably just the top 5-6 indices (Insurance, 16 v. 10, 15 v. 10, 12 v. 2, 12 v. 3, 10 v. 10). I have no trouble with level-2 counting or true count conversion. I no longer have simulation software or I'd do it myself, but what do you recommend? The other possibility would be the compromised FELT with the block changes at 0 and +6, so that's another possibility if that would outperform FELT with the limited precise indices. If I use REKO, I'll true count it for betting purposes but not for playing decisions. Thoughts?

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    Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

    It shouldn't be too mentally taxing to learn a simple count and the illustrious 18.

    How long ago were you "counting cards seriously?" I imagine if you were serious enough, a quick refresher should bring almost everything back.

  3. #3


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryemo View Post
    Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

    It shouldn't be too mentally taxing to learn a simple count and the illustrious 18.

    How long ago were you "counting cards seriously?" I imagine if you were serious enough, a quick refresher should bring almost everything back.
    I don't need a simple count (see comment about level-2, true counting, etc.) - it's just a waste to memorize a bunch of indices for the twenty or thirty hours I might be able to play per year now. I paid my way through college using the zen count in Vegas back in the day, but with limited indices, I'm guessing FELT would be a bit stronger due to its higher BC.

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    You should compare counts with I18/F4 or whatever indices you plan on using. Find the optimal bet ramp for each using the spread you intend on using (i.e. 1 to 12), the same huge BR like hundreds of thousands, the same RoR, the same rules, your wonging style, and pen. The one with the highest top bet should bet the most accurate. Betting accuracy is not the same as BC. The optimal bets are determined as a function of EV and SD. The one that bets the most accurately has the smallest SD (and Variance). The will make the optimal bet higher when all else is kept equal for the same spread. There will be a small influence from PE but you will play those indices so it gives a better answer if the answer differs from the count that bets most accurately. You use the same massive BR to try to get everything to show up in one parameter, top bet. The gain will be best whether practical bets change which has the highest EV. The missing EV when things are run for your BR just moved to decreased RoR or gains in some other stat. The gains are still there just in a different form than the parameter in which you forced all gain to be show up. Those that see their RoR as virtually 0 could call the gain "lost", even though it is not, because a reduction in RoR is meaningless to them.

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    Answer is in the question: FELT

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    O.K., but I still wonder which would be stronger in a shoe game where indices aren't all that important:

    1) FELT with the top 6 precise indices, or
    2) FELT as presented with 15 or 20 indices broken into two blocks at 0 and +6.

    And how much better is either of these choices than REKO with true counted betting but all playing decisions made at a single point by running count?

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    You make me laugh. How hard is it to memorize 15 to 20 indices? I guess it might take you 15 minutes or so. I guess that is too much trouble. Typical younger generation. Wants everything now and doesn't want to do even the slightest work to get it. I guess following my directions was way too much work for you. LoL

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    Two things:

    1) I'm probably older than you (I paid my way through college with the Zen count not long after it was first published).

    2) You're not listening. I don't have the software to generate optimal bet ramps, indices, or anything else. I don't play enough to make it worth buying software or relearning indices when I go on my once-a-year trip to Vegas.

    Bonus: Thanks for your contributions to the field - truly impressive.

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    You can look at www.qfit.com/book/ModernBlackjackPage104.htm
    FELT-F with all precise indices is only slightly more powerful that FELT with compromise indices.
    And even less with only 6.
    Except with 1 deck or less cut off.
    Last edited by Phoebe; 01-23-2017 at 10:36 AM.

  10. #10


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    Quote Originally Posted by vegaskid View Post
    O.K., but I still wonder which would be stronger in a shoe game where indices aren't all that important:

    1) FELT with the top 6 precise indices, or
    2) FELT as presented with 15 or 20 indices broken into two blocks at 0 and +6.

    And how much better is either of these choices than REKO with true counted betting but all playing decisions made at a single point by running count?
    My answer is going to be the FELT-F count because using FELT with compromise indices is no better than using REKO-F in running count mode. From the chart that Philippe B provided it shows that in Six Deck S17,DAS game FELT with compromise indices outperform REKO-F in running count mode in lower penetration slightly but REKO-F outperforms FELT with compromise indices in deeper penetrations considerably. I am not sure how FELT with top 6 precise indices will perform compare to REKO-F.
    Last edited by seriousplayer; 01-23-2017 at 11:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vegaskid View Post
    Two things:

    1) I'm probably older than you (I paid my way through college with the Zen count not long after it was first published).

    2) You're not listening. I don't have the software to generate optimal bet ramps, indices, or anything else. I don't play enough to make it worth buying software or relearning indices when I go on my once-a-year trip to Vegas.

    Bonus: Thanks for your contributions to the field - truly impressive.
    To each his own. I hope you get the info you seek. If you only play as much as you say it really doesn't matter which count you pick. Results will be fairly uncertain no matter what. Looking to minimize n0 would get you the most certainty of results for so few rounds a year but the number of rounds would still be far too few to get the kind of certainty you should hope to have.

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    This seems like a no-brainer to me...

    If Zen was your count of choice back in the day, then pick up from where you left off. Zen is a good count and also happens to be the system I use. So stick with Zen and I18 and you're good to go. And even if you aren't playing much, I would still consider purchasing Norm's software, CVCX. It's only like $85. It'll pay for itself and more within one year of only playing 30 hrs or so.

  13. #13


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryemo View Post
    This seems like a no-brainer to me...

    If Zen was your count of choice back in the day, then pick up from where you left off. Zen is a good count and also happens to be the system I use. So stick with Zen and I18 and you're good to go. And even if you aren't playing much, I would still consider purchasing Norm's software, CVCX. It's only like $85. It'll pay for itself and more within one year of only playing 30 hrs or so.
    Since you use the Zen count where can you find all the complete traditional Zen indices? Even in Casino Verite the Zen indices are missing. The OP mention that he doesn't have a simulation software so he can't generate risk averse indices for the Zen Count.

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